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[mike kyner]

is Matt 24 a parable or prophecy

[arion]

Jesus was speaking to the multitudes.  Whenever he spoke to the multitudes it was in parables only;


1st witness;

Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

2nd witness;

Mar 4:34  But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.


And then when he expounded to the disciples he did so with yet other parables.

Joh 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

.......

Joh 16:29  His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

[mike kyner]

that's sorta what i think but it seems he was talking to his disciples though he didn't tell them everything and I don't think they understood all they were told

[indianabob]

Hi folks,
True about the parables being taught prior to Jesus' resurrection, but then in Acts 1 and 2 the holy spirit is given and the apostles are given spiritual understanding and are able to explain to all those attending the real plan of God for Israel and the world.
=
Jesus could not have given them understanding before then because they would have tried to prevent Jesus being taken by the Jews and Romans.

= =
Matthew 4:10
"Away from Me, Satan!" Jesus declared. "For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'"

Matthew 16:22
Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. "Far be it from You, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to You!"

Mark 8:33
But Jesus, turning and looking at His disciples, rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

[Porter]

Can Mat 24 be both a parable and a prophecy?

Thayer Definition:
1) prophecy

1a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events

I ask because the word prophecy has always kind of threw me off in the past. But lately, I'm looking at it a different way.

Ecc 1:9  What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun.

Rev 1:4  John: To the seven churches in the province of Asia. Grace and peace to you from the One who is, who was, and who is coming; from the seven spirits before His throne;

To be clear, I agree Mat 24 is a parable. As we all know, parables pertain to the invisible, the hidden and the spiritual. They are the things that must come to pass in all those Christ is gathering to Himself.

[Dave in Tenn]

They still don't understand what He told them.  If it's a prophecy, it's summed up in parable(s).  (While He always and only spoke to those not His disciples in Parables, He spoke to His disciples also in parables, yet gave them the meaning--at least sometimes He did.  All of the parables pertaining to the Kingdom boil down to the same thing:  many are called, few chosen).  The words of the Lord are Spirit, and they must be Spiritually discerned.

I've asked this question before, but didn't get a satisfactory answer.  Of all the statements in Matt. 24 that sound like Prophecies (and may well be, spiritually discerned) which ones are unique to this church age--to this present age when His people are coming out of her?  That is to say, never happened before Jesus spoke.  Of those, which is the first one?  Of all the instructions given in the light of these Prophetic statements, which is the first?   

[Porter]

That's a tough one, Dave. I, personally, can't see where none of Matt 24 hasn't happened to those coming out of her. It may well be there, but I'm unable to see it. Could you maybe rephrase your question? The question alone makes me reconsider some things I hadn't thought of before in quite the way you are presenting it, assuming I understand what you are asking.

[Musterseed]

My understanding

I see this as prophecy because Ray said parables are not literal. They are near stories.

I’m not really sure of your question of how you worded it Dave but I see the first instruction
in verse four… see that no one leads you astray. Why? Verse five ,
which I see as being very literal . They are the many who leads astray..

[Dave in Tenn]

That's a tough one, Dave. I, personally, can't see where none of Matt 24 hasn't happened to those coming out of her. It may well be there, but I'm unable to see it. Could you maybe rephrase your question? The question alone makes me reconsider some things I hadn't thought of before in quite the way you are presenting it, assuming I understand what you are asking.

Porter, I know that these things are Spiritual and "play out" in the lives of His chosen in each generation.

We're used to thinking of prophecy as a fore-telling of a future event.  Lord knows, this chapter gets trotted out to fulfill that interpretation.  And it's not entirely untrue.  Many have come in His name, saying He is Christ, and deceived many.  Still happening.  Prophecy fulfilled! 

I'm asking if any of the Statements Jesus made are unique to this age, this New Covenant age, this Church age, this age of separation, that never happened before He said it.  Weren't there wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc. etc. before the "prophecy"?  What do we make of "these things"?  We make, or ought to be able to see to make, that "these things" are NOT the end.  These statements are "prophecy" but the "prophecy" is that these things must be...just as they've always been, more or less intensely, throughout History since the beginning.  Nothing new here. 

So, yes, the first of the things that "sound like" prophecy is "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."  Don't be deceived.  Something new here!  Christian doctrine!  Many will come saying!  Next is "ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars".  See that ye be not troubled, for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  Read the remainder of the Chapter and don't forget for a second that many come in His name, saying He is Christ, and deceive many.  As Ray said, if the Church teaches it, it's wrong.  I don't give them a "pass" for end-times "prophecy".  Their wrongness is profound.

Does that clear up anything?     

                 

[Porter]

Yes, this clears it up nicely. I would then have to ask, how much did the prophets of the Old Testament live and believe these things too?

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals [Greek: beast, congregation, company] that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Gen 3:2  The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden.
Gen 3:3  But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.'"
Gen 3:4  "No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman.
Gen 3:5  "In fact, God [Greek: the Elohim] knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

I can't help but to see this next passage as a witness to the passage in Gen 3:2-5

Mat 13:24  He presented another parable to them: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mat 13:25  But while people were sleeping, his enemy came, sowed weeds among the wheat, and left.
Mat 13:26  When the plants sprouted and produced grain, then the weeds also appeared.
Mat 13:27  The landowner's slaves came to him and said, 'Master, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?'
Mat 13:28  "'An enemy did this!' he told them. "'So, do you want us to go and gather them up?' the slaves asked him.
Mat 13:29  "'No,' he said. 'When you gather up the weeds, you might also uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I'll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn. '"

Jesus' seed and Satan's seed have been there, growing ever so closely together, since the beginning - intertwined closer than most realize. The prophets believed and lived these things as well, didn't they?

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.
Heb 11:14  Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
Heb 11:15  If they had been remembering that land they came from, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16  But they now aspire to a better land--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

1Pe 1:12  It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you concerning things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Angels desire to look into these things.

The only thing I can think of that might be "new" in this New Covenant age is the spirit of grace that came to us through Jesus. I suppose in that spiritual sense, Jesus is new as well, seeing how Jesus is the Promised Land we aspire to reach and will reach if His grace is on us.

I could be wrong and the specific verses and statements within that you are referring to really are unique, and I'm just not seeing it. I mean, before Christian doctrine and bible errors, there were the teachings and rituals of the Egyptian pagans, of which the Israelites and then the Christians adopted and incorporated as their own.

I know you already know these things, Dave, but I'm writing them out to give you the reason for the hope that is in me. My hope could be fine, but the reasoning may not be.

Otherwise, yes I agree, "these things" are not the end, but rather the beginning of birth pains just as Jesus stated in Matt 24:8.

Joh 3:3  Jesus replied, "I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If the sermon on the mount is for us, then the end has to be the end of our mortal life in the spiritual tribulation of our life.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Besides, what is to me spiritually if the world ends literally? I know what it is to Christendom, and you're right, it's profoundly wrong.

[zvezda]

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear[191. akouó ] of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

akouó: to hear, listen
Original Word: ἀκούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: akouó
Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o)
Definition: to hear, listen
Usage: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported

As Ray always said - pay attention to the words.

We can hear the wars and rumors of wars only because of the internet.
Think about it, how many wars and rumors of wars had you heard (from newspaper, TV, radio) before the internet age?
Bhutan (the Himalayan kingdom) was so remote that many of its inhabitants didn’t even hear about WW2 until it was over.
China has been threatening to invade Taiwan for more than 50 years. Did people who were growing up in the 40s or 50s actually hear the tensions between China and Taiwan at that time?

I bet many people around the world wouldn't even hear about the 911 attacks if it's not for the internet.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness[3142. marturion] unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

marturion: a testimony, a witness
Original Word: μαρτύριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: marturion
Phonetic Spelling: (mar-too'-ree-on)
Definition: a testimony, a witness
Usage: witness, evidence, testimony, proof.

Where can we see the "witness, evidence, testimony, proof" 24/7/365? The internet is the only place that we can see bible truths 24/7/365.

What's new and unique is the internet age. We wouldn't even have a chance to learn about bible truths if it's not for the internet.

[Dave in Tenn]

No doubt there were lies and errors before Jesus made these statements.  But the Egyptians and Babylonians, while deceiving many (including Judaism), did not come in HIS name, saying HE is the Christ.  That role is only played by Christians, axiomatically.  That's the part that is new, not having existed before.  He didn't come until He came, and He didn't establish His church until He did--though both of these things were prophesied in the OT.

Mike's question was whether Matt. 24 was prophecy or parable.  In my view, it is both.  BUT:  The prophetic element in Jesus' teaching his disciples is NOT the "prophecy" espoused by the Church, writ large, and moreso by those whose concentration is so consumed by it.  Many will/have come saying.  Be not deceived.

     

[Porter]

When you phrase it like that, Dave, I understand even better what you are saying. I'm a bit slow at times, but I come around if you give me the chance.

[mike kyner]

i guess what i was trying to come to grips with was "this generation..." and couldn't get it then it if he was literally talking to the disciples it struck me that v. 33 Jesus said when you see these things...perhaps its the generation of believers that see those things unfold spiritually...i think that would lend itself to being a parable and prophesy ?

[zvezda]

i guess what i was trying to come to grips with was "this generation..." and couldn't get it then it if he was literally talking to the disciples it struck me that v. 33 Jesus said when you see these things...perhaps its the generation of believers that see those things unfold spiritually...i think that would lend itself to being a parable and prophesy ?

Ray answered the question about "this generation":

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,10367.0.html
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4095.0.html
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.msg48011.html#msg48011

[Dave in Tenn]

We can hear the wars and rumors of wars only because of the internet.
Think about it, how many wars and rumors of wars had you heard (from newspaper, TV, radio) before the internet age?
...
What's new and unique is the internet age. We wouldn't even have a chance to learn about bible truths if it's not for the internet.

I turned 67 a few days ago.  That's not horribly old, but about half my life was before the internet age.  We used to have something called TV, and there were news shows on it, even when there were only three or four channels.     Trust me.  We heard plenty about wars and rumors of wars.  We even used to have drills where we hunkered under our wooden desks at school to learn how to survive thermonuclear war.  Everybody had a radio back then, even before then.  On most stations, news every hour.  Viet-Nam, the middle east, Africa, South and Central America--sometimes even in the streets of the USA.   

Newspaper and periodicals both during and before the age of radio and tv.  I paid my earliest college tuition delivering newspapers.  Often, they contained news.  Wars and rumors of wars. 

Before any of that, town criers and public notices, etc.  How did they raise armies without a means to communicate the need?

I've paid attention to all the words.  And I have this silly notion that "And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars" comes after "...For many shall come...saying" the same way that it works in the real world. 

Who is doing the saying?  And what are they saying?  Who is doing the hearing?  And what are they supposed to do about it?

I've answered those questions.  For myself.  You're welcome to them, if you want them.  Just not privately. 

[zvezda]

I turned 67 a few days ago.  That's not horribly old, but about half my life was before the internet age.  We used to have something called TV, and there were news shows on it, even when there were only three or four channels.     Trust me.  We heard plenty about wars and rumors of wars.  We even used to have drills where we hunkered under our wooden desks at school to learn how to survive thermonuclear war.  Everybody had a radio back then, even before then.  On most stations, news every hour.  Viet-Nam, the middle east, Africa, South and Central America--sometimes even in the streets of the USA.   

Newspaper and periodicals both during and before the age of radio and tv.  I paid my earliest college tuition delivering newspapers.  Often, they contained news.  Wars and rumors of wars. 

You may think this is a conspiracy theory -- but if you know who owns and controls the MSM (main stream media), you know 90% of what you heard from TV, radio, newspaper are BS, propaganda and lies.

There were quite a few propaganda from 1915 - 1918 old newspapers about six million jews being persecuted, that's before the holocaust. The MSM started lying long before you were born.

The MSM even lied about the moon landings, 911 attacks, covid pandemic, and as recent as the Hawaii fires.

We all heard about the Russia-Ukraine war that's happening right now, I can tell what the MSM reported about this war are just 100% BS, propaganda and lies. But if you consider all these BS, propaganda and lies are the same things as "wars and rumors of wars", that's fine, I just think there are differences between rumors and lies.

A rumor can be true or false, but it's still an unverified information. It's MSM's job to verify the information before they decide to report it or not. If they haven't verified or they found out the information is false after verifying it, they can't report it because of journalistic ethics and standards. If they go ahead to report it, then it's a flat out lie, not rumor.

So back to Jesus's statement about wars and rumors of wars, it's up to you if you think you did "hear wars and rumors of wars" from TV, radio, newspaper.

[Dave in Tenn]

I know what I've seen and heard and I won't be gaslit.

On a side-note:  If you listen to the news, MOST of what they are reporting is what somebody said, essentially.  If they present the fact that somebody said something, that IS the news.

First paragraph (completely fictional example):

The Grand Pooh of Transintania, in a speech televised this morning from his capital office, said in a warning to all citizens that Transintania will be invaded by murderous crickets from outer space Tuesday evening sometime after dark.

What's the news in this completely fictional example?  If you tell me that the news is that Transintania will be invaded by murderous crickets from outer space Tuesday evening sometime after dark, you're not really qualified to explain what "news" is.  The "news" is, "The Grand Pooh of Transintania said..."

There's more questions to ask, and more to dig up, and that's also journalism, but it's not "news" unless it explains, corrects, or casts further light on the first report--that the Grand Pooh of Transintania said what he said.  That kind of journalism, to be honest and ethical, has to be accurate and truthful or be subject to retraction, or ridicule, or both.

There might be plenty of commentary, spin, investigation, speculation on what he said, and probably why.  And a lot of that may be public, but it's not "news".

The good people of Transintania would probably be right to question what he said.  Especially if, by sunrise Wednesday morning, murderous crickets from outer space had not arrived.  But they would probably be wrong to question that he said it, given that so many people listened to his speech.  And these days, there will soon be 1013 videos on Transintaniatube with 757 mutually exclusive theories about why the murderous crickets did not arrive, why the Grand Pooh made the statement, whether the Grand Pooh made the statement at all, and any other related topic that will get clicks. 

Unless, of course, the murderous crickets did arrive at the appointed time---but they were invisible.  (eerie synth music)  I speak as a fool.

       

[zvezda]

I know what you mean, but if we go back to talk about the fulfillment of scripture, it's still the internet that makes it possible.

So you (and some people) heard about wars and rumors of wars from the news before the internet age, does it mean the scripture had been fullfilled and we can ignore the fact that many people around the world still didn't have access to the news?

Like I said, I bet many people around the world wouldn't even hear about the 911 attacks if it's not for the internet. It's the internet that allows the news (honest news, fake news, wars and rumors of wars) worldwide available.

Also on a side note: What the MSM reported about the Russia-Ukraine war is not just somebody said something blah blah blah, it's 100% unlike your fictional example. They used green screen backgrounds to lie about their reporters being in the war zone. They re-used old pics from some old news about gas explosion and said the pics were taken from the war zone. They have plenty of flagrant ways for lying, it's not just simply present the fact about somebody saying something.