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[Musterseed]

I listened to this teaching last night and Ray spoke about this scripture
which I hadn’t notice before.

2 Chron. 19:2…. But Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him
and said to King Jehoshaphat, Should you help the wicked and love those
who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord.

1 Sam. 9:9… ( formerly in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, he said
let us go to the seer, for TODAYS PROPHET was formerly called a seer.

Ray said something that caught my ear . He said , after mentioning many names in this teaching brought up one in particular. He made a statement about an article
he had read titled( Is TJ Jakes the next Billy Graham)
I came across that article today in Uncor Sunday. I hardly ever listen to anyone
other than Ray but this peeked my interest, so I did a little research and
there are many of his talks on YouTube along with other motivational speakers.

Ray had said that these last generations would attempt self- purification.
I wasn’t sure what that meant so I looked it up.
It refers to the process of removing negative influences from one’s life and
developing positive habits and attitudes.
FYI,,, Jakes was named best preacher by Time Magazine.
There are many, many of these so called Christian Motivational Speakers.
To me this is the free will attitude at its worst, this self purification.

Amos 8:11… Behold ,the days are coming declares the Lord God when I will
send a famine on the land , not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but
of hearing the word of the Lord.

I read a quote on one of the posts from sea of glass.
Quote… people’s behaviour is so out of sync, it is incredible to witness.

I agree. I am witnessing things not only in people’s behaviour but all over the net and the news,that are so wicked it lies heavy on me.
Are any of you guys experiencing this? My only solace is reading scripture,
Praise Jesus for His Mercy and Love.

From The Myth Of Free Will

Isaiah 10:12 I will punish ( Hebrew , avenge, hurt, do judgement) the fruit of
the stout ( Hebrew , arrogant) heart of the King of Assyria ( or anyone else with
the same sin seeing that God is no respecter of persons, Acts.10:34) and the glory of his high ( Hebrew, (haughty looks)

Anyway Ray said in that teaching that we should keep our eye on this TJJakes.

I’m so tired. How about you all. What are you experiencing?
God Bless You All
In Christ, Pamela

[Porter]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Mat 23:25  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence!
Mat 23:26  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so the outside of it may also become clean.
Mat 23:27  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every impurity.
Mat 23:28  In the same way, on the outside you seem righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

What is a “generation” besides children?

1Jn 3:10  This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.

[casey]

My feelings are similar Pamela. HANG IN THERE.

                          Casey

[Musterseed]

Thank you Casey, you hang in there too.

Porter , those ducks are vultures.

[Porter]

Porter , those ducks are vultures.

I thought you might pick up on that, Pamela.

I went on a trip recently to the big city, unwillingly, but I had to go see an endocrinologist for my thyroid. The interesting thing about this is that everywhere I went, I kept running into these “vultures in ducks clothing”  . A number of them even took good care of me and my son, who was my escort on my trip into the big city. Some of these “ducks” were total strangers, and a couple were old friends from college. Even my son believes in God, but not quite the same way we do here at BT.

So then, of course, I began asking God, “what are you doing?” because this was a bit surreal for me once I realized with whom God was causing me to be surrounded by. Looking back, especially after your post here, Pamela, I see how every one of them were attempting some form of the self purification that you are referring to. Every one of them was doing the “wonderful works” they are known for doing. I know because they told me.

Here's the kicker. Besides running into many who call Jesus Lord, I also kept running into people in the streets who seemed to need my help. I offered some of them money or gave them whatever they asked of me and then some. One guy I met wanted to show me that his jacket was stab proof by repeatedly stabbing himself in the chest. He even mentioned that my jacket was not stab proof  . I am not sure why I didn't notice sooner when I first called him over that he was armed to the teeth with knives in almost every pocket of that jacket of his. And I was alone with him in the parking lot of the hotel my son and I were staying in. My son must have gotten concerned after a few minutes because he went looking for me outside. It seems once the person with the stab proof jacket saw my son, he proceeded to leave. My son is a big, strong young man, so maybe the knife man felt intimidated. Anyhow, I felt sorry for knife man and asked him if he needed some money, but he seemed insulted by my offer and started yelling something as he was leaving.

So now, I can't help but to think that I too was attempting self purification. I mean, it felt pretty good to help those that seem to need it, but I sense that it could have gotten me hurt a few times. Some of these people had the look of desperation in their eyes, and I couldn't help but to pity them. I mean, I know what it's like to live in the streets and having to beg. So I guess in the back of my mind I was trying to pay it forward from all the times people, including Christians, helped me in my destitution.

Now, I know I didn't need to do any of that because it doesn't make me righteous or clean. I actually feel pretty stupid and ashamed about it now, to be honest. It feels like I was just on some emotional high the whole time. If we've learned anything here at BT is that we know that the heart is the seat of our emotions. To be led by our emotions (caused by external circumstances) has the potential to deceive us into thinking we are good, which makes us feel less guilty or blinds us concerning our sinful beastly nature. Yet, it is through godly guilt, sorrow, and shame that we can repent.

Joh 3:20  For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.
Joh 3:21  But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.

Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts, and I will write them on their minds,
Heb 10:17  He adds: I will never again remember their sins and their lawless acts.

[Musterseed]

Now Porter you know Christ told us to beware of ducks in vulture’s clothing.
LOL

That was quite an experience you had. A test of your faith maybe?
God does strange things in this earth. It’s astonishing
to see. I have not been to the big city in years. I don’t
like them either.
All is vanity. Yes , and yet All Is Of God, quite amazing isn’t it.
We are very blessed here at BT.

Humans love the darkness. I believe this is becoming more and more evident
as humanity tries to live independently of their creator. Sin upon sin upon sin
in an evil time.
Porter, it will be a great day when we all wear stab proof jackets, manufactured
by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, of course they will be whiter than white.

[Porter]

What is the sea of sinning humanities darkness compared to the Churches' darkness? What is “darkness”? Isn't it the same as the “shadow” where light is absent under the law of Moses, wrought by human works instead of faith and grace? If it's of faith and grace, why does the Church boast as if it isn't faith and grace?

Heb 10:1  Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year.
Heb 10:2  Otherwise, wouldn't they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

In other words, if the physical rituals of self purification were enough, why did they have to keep doing it? They have to keep doing those rituals and wonderful works because they are unable to believe Jesus' voluntary act of laying down His life was enough to render a not guilty verdict for all of humanity. They do these works which makes them feel righteous while looking down on the rest of sinning humanity. Talk about covetous hypocrites.

So, the law was added to make spiritual sins (such as thou shalt not covet) seem more sinful, as it truly is. I love the Amplified bible's translation for the explanation, as it just nails it.

Gal 3:19  What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man].

Rom 7:12  So then, the law is holy, and the commandment (thou shalt not covet) is holy and just and good.
Rom 7:13  Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment sin might become sinful beyond measure.

The reason the law makes sin seem more sinful is to inspire change in the believer. Look at Paul just rejoicing about it.

2Co 7:9  Now I am rejoicing, not because you were grieved, but because your grief led to repentance. For you were grieved as God willed, so that you didn't experience any loss from us.
2Co 7:10  For godly grief produces a repentance not to be regretted and leading to salvation, but worldly grief produces death.
2Co 7:11  For consider how much diligence this very thing--this grieving as God wills--has produced in you: what a desire to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what deep longing, what zeal, what justice! In every way you have commended yourselves to be pure in this matter.

Psa 51:17  My sacrifice [the sacrifice acceptable] to God is a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart [broken down with sorrow for sin and humbly and thoroughly penitent], such, O God, You will not despise.

The law of Moses was just a shadow being cast from the light where God puts His laws into the hearts and minds of the believer to give them a consciousness, to wake them up and to make them alive from the dead works of Moses' law. Hardly anyone who calls Jesus Lord believes this. Because if they did, they would stop doing anything and everything related to outward physical works and rituals. They would see they themselves are beasts whose only hope for them and the world is Jesus and not their selves.

If all parables are about the many called and the few chosen, what do we gain from that knowledge?

Psa 23:1  A Davidic psalm. The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack.
Psa 23:2  He lets me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters.
Psa 23:3  He renews my life; He leads me along the right paths for His name's sake.
Psa 23:4  Even when I go through the darkest valley, I fear no danger, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff--they comfort me.
Psa 23:5  You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Psa 23:6  Only goodness and faithful love will pursue me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD as long as I live.

I was more in danger from the Christians I ran into in the big city than the knife man. The danger was in not loving the Christians. Knife man was easy to love

[Dynamo54]

Very, very profound Porter. Thank you for cogitating on this. Very Ray like. You have spent some time on this and it is very thought provoking.

[Musterseed]

Yes, thanks for your insight Porter.

God Bless You

[octoberose]

I guess I don’t really understand .  Love your neighbor as yourself is not a suggestion  .  Pure religion is taking care of the widows and orphans according to the NT - I would say in this day it is those who through no fault of their own cannot take care of themselves .   I know plenty of people who just want to be generous and kind to their neighbor . If that’s self purification it’s because of the state of the heart - which we cannot determine in another .

[Musterseed]

From Keeping Sabbath

Matt.11:28……. Come to me all you who LABOR and are heavy laden
and I will give you rest.

Who labor( doing your works , of churchosity) and I will give you rest.

Peace and rest for all in Christ Octoberose, no one will be left out.
All your kind and generous neighbours will be made complete
and whole in God’s plan. I just read that in the last paragraph of
Keeping Sabbath teaching. Those who labor…are those who have not yet have
come out of the shadow, but they will in Gods own timing.
Isn’t our Lord wonderful.


The reality is found in Christ .

God Bless You and those you love.

[Porter]

Good find and an excellent point, Pamela.

Rose, I think you do understand, near perfectly in fact. The problem isn't with doing these “external” works, the problem is in the heart. More specifically, who or what rules the heart.

Jas 1:26  If anyone thinks himself to be religious (piously observant of the external duties of his faith) and does not bridle his tongue but deludes his own heart, this person's religious service is worthless (futile, barren).
Jas 1:27  External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

I said you understood “near” perfectly because you said we cannot determine the state of one's heart. However, I believe we can determine the state of another's heart. I believe that because as Jesus is, so are we (1Jn_4:17). I can judge another's heart, as long as I first judged myself in the same way. So I better be merciful to myself.

Mat 15:18  But whatever comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this is what makes a man unclean and defiles [him].
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart come evil thoughts (reasonings and disputings and designs) such as murder, adultery, sexual vice, theft, false witnessing, slander, and irreverent speech.

Jesus did many wonderful outward works of healing people, forgiving people, feeding people, praying for people, being merciful and raising the dead. He could do this because His heart was clean from understanding that He could do nothing of His own self (Joh_5:30). Not only that, but Jesus didn't do these things to prove in the sight of all that He was righteous, like the many who do these things for that very reason. He did these things because He truly loves His neighbor, but who is His neighbor?

Eph 5:29  For no one ever hates his own flesh, but provides and cares for it [Look at the birds of the sky: they don't sow or reap or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. — Mat_6:26], just as Christ does for the church,
Eph 5:30  since we are members of His body.

If His neighbors are members of His body, whom He is taking care of, who are the members of His body?

1Co 12:12  For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body--so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13  For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14  So the body is not one part but many.

Can you see how every one of the verses I cited must be spiritually discerned? When we spiritually discern Jesus' words, we can see that it is all one in meaning. His neighbors, the members of His body, and even the widows and orphans are one and the same.

Lam 5:2  Our inheritance has been turned over to strangers, our houses to foreigners.
Lam 5:3  We have become orphans, fatherless; our mothers are widows.

Here's another parable in the same vein as the previous parables.

Mat 25:35  For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36  I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.'
Mat 25:37  "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
Mat 25:38  When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
Mat 25:39  When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?'
Mat 25:40  "And the King will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.

All these works of taking care of our neighbor can and should be done in the heart, and in the spirit. In this way, we are obeying and loving Jesus. I mean, what are the chances that we're going to see one another naked so that we can clothe each other? It is by Jesus' words that many are fed, clothed, healed and made alive, in the spirit. If we are as Jesus is, then it is also by our words that any are provided for.

1Co 1:21 …it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

We may not know with absolute certainty that any one of us might be one of the few chosen, but we can at the very least know that we are of the many called. Like Ray said, it's a very high calling, and one we should aspire to if we love Jesus. The table is being set, provisions have been made, the neighbors have been invited. Let's eat and drink the Lord's supper in a worthy way. Oh, and pass the salt! 

[Musterseed]

WOW PORTER…………FIRE ANYONE

[octoberose]

Well, referring to what you mentioned earlier Porter, I’ll take the Christians and you can take the knife man.  I understand the Christians- I’ve been with them in one way or another for over fifty years and i know how to talk with them.  It’s the ministry God has given me for now.
 I’m not sure if you’re saying in Matthew 25 that we spiritually discern those who need to be clothed and fed - that it’s not with real clothes and real food ?
 I think one reason i understood Ray most of the time was that he talked like a roofer and even a simple person , like me, could understand him.  God knows he hasn’t given me the ability to see much beyond the simple.

[Porter]

I’m not sure if you’re saying in Matthew 25 that we spiritually discern those who need to be clothed and fed - that it’s not with real clothes and real food ?

No, I'm not saying it, Jesus is. The answer from “the righteous” in Jesus' parable gives it away. The righteous never saw Jesus in the condition of being hungry, naked, thirsty, as a stranger etc. So it can't be literally true. So then it must be spiritually true only. Jesus is saying, if you did these good things for “the least” of all His Brothers, you did it to and for Him.

For the record, I was actually afraid of the knife man because he seemed a little unhinged. The Christians weren't a threat like the knife man was, but the threat was that I was in danger of Gehenna judgment in the lake of fire if I didn't love the Christians. The parables below are where I got this idea from.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard, that it was said, to them of olden time,—Thou shalt not commit murder, and, whosoever shall commit murder, shall be, liable, to judgment.
Mat 5:22 But, I, say unto you, that, every one who is angry with his brother, shall be, liable, to judgment,—and, whosoever shall say to his brother, Worthless one!, shall be, liable, to the high council; and, whosoever shall say, Rebel!, shall be, liable, unto the fiery gehenna.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows selling for a penny? And not one of them will be falling on the earth without your Father.

I couldn't have known any of this until I experienced it and looked back at that experience and remembered Jesus' words above.

[octoberose]

Jesus is telling them to love your neighbor and giving to those who are hungry and thirsty and in need is giving to Jesus.  Everything we do for the least of these goes to our Lord.  And if you think it’s spiritual, well ok but I’ll try to give to the actual hungry.
 When Jesus talks about the law he is telling them it is impossible to keep the law. It is impossible. He upped the anti - not only you don’t kill your neighbor but you aren’t even angry.  There’s no getting there.  The law is impossible - Jesus made it clear. Jesus is the only way for a taste of redemption in this life and then in the next we can experience what it’s like to be like Him.  I can hardly wait for that.

[Musterseed]

Matt 12:46-50——— While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold
His Mother and His brothers stood outside, asking to speak to Him.
Then one said,” look , your mother and brothers are standing outside.”
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “ WHO IS MY MOTHER AND WHO
ARE MY BROTHERS “ ( caps mine for emphasis, not yelling  )
And He stretched out His hand toward His DISCIPLES and said” HERE ARE MY
MOTHER AND MY BROTHERS, for whoever does the Will of My Father in heaven
is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matt. 5:21…. You have heard that it was said to those of old( the many) you shall
not murder and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.

Christ is talking to His disciples here in Sermon on the Mount, not to the
multitudes.

V22 …. But I SAY unto you ( under the Spiritual Law of Jesus which is a much
higher standard of obedience as you say Octoberose) everyone who is angry
with his brother will be liable to judgement .Whoever insults his brother will be
liable to the council, and whoever says” you fool” will be liable to the hell
Gehenna) fire.

Did Christ ever call anyone you fool? Read Matt 23.

Christ is speaking to HIS DISCIPLES, on the Mount not to be angry with their
brothers and in Matt. 12: 46-50 tells us who our brothers are.

These are parables once again of the many called and the few chosen.
The few are are admonished not to insult, be angry with, or call a brother fool.

Ray said the Ten Commandments are spiritual.  Thou shalt not covet requires
sinning in the mind . Everyone covets ( LUSTS after) before they physically carry
out the sin, hence the reason that the carnal mind has got to go, and is enmity
against God. So while the commandment to not commit adultary is the law of the
OT Christ says ( and don’t even THINK ABOUT IT) in His Spiritual Law.
Thou shalt not COVET ( don’t even think about it) your neighbours wife etc)

In the teaching of the Two Loves we understand that we should agape our neighbours and our enemies. We are to see beyond their carnal nature to
what God has determined for them after judgement. All will be brought to
obedience and as Ray said” a smiling face for all 

Rom. 7:14… for we know that the law is Spiritual.

All this or most of this is in the teaching on The Two Loves and also The Sermon
On The Mount.

I hope this helps.
In Christ, Pamela

[Porter]

This exactly Pamela! Ray made it abundantly clear from the Scriptures that our righteousness should “…exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisee's” (Mat_5:20). It's no secret that the Scribes and Pharisee's excelled in the physical law of Moses. The Apostle Paul (back when he was named Saul) was a Pharisee himself, and he practiced the law to near perfection, over and above all the other Pharisees.

The commandment of “thou shall not commit adultery” that Pamela brought up gives us the perfect opportunity to see how we can apply that spiritually or internally so that our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. It's really as simple as not lusting or fantasizing after another in our hearts and minds. By doing this, as Pamela pointed out, the outside will become clean. In other words, if you nip this sin of physical adultery in the bud by resisting the cause of it that starts in the heart when we fantasize about it, you won't do it physically. This principle can be applied to all the physical law of Moses because as Paul said: “…the law is spiritual” (Rom_7:14).

There is another layer of spiritual truth within the commandment of thou shall not commit adultery. This truth will really show us how truly dark the spiritual sin of adultery is. It's like the darkness has a whole new level of darkness, and it points to the sin of the world. It's a lust like no other and gives a new meaning to having faith or being faithful to Jesus. Ray has already expounded on this in the free will series of his papers. If I could condense it down to a few words, I'd start with the first commandment of — “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” from Exo 20:3.

Jesus is not only God, but He is also the Churches promised Husband. Rather than waiting for Jesus and remaining faithful to Jesus by remaining a “virgin”, the Church commits adultery by obeying Satan (albeit through deception) and worshiping themselves. It gets worse. Once we realize that the spiritual sin of adultery is the same as every other sexual sin mentioned in the bible, we might start to feel pretty gross about it. I mean, it's supposed to make our skin crawl, to inspire the change I was talking about before. That's what these spiritual laws do. Here's the sad truth of the matter.

Joh 3:19  "This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.

There is hope, and that is why Christ has brought us together.

Act 26:18  to open their eyes that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

[ralph]

Christ will do greater things spiritually in us and through us than he physically did while he was on Earth.

John 14:12-14
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

The spiritual aspects of scripture are paramount.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Helping people is a blessing. I will do so whenever I have the means or opportunity, but feeding someone with spiritual food and riches is of much greater importance and value.

[Musterseed]

Well said Ralph . 

Our bodies decay, as our spirit soars, when I think about
Our Lords plan for humanity, I feel like Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah’s
couch.