I will raise it up again

[octoberose]

Hi all, How would you explain when Jesus says he laid down his life and he will raise it up again ?  I know Ray talked about this somewhere.  God raised him from the dead but was Jesus referring to his physical life ?? I need some help getting it straight in my own mind to pass it on. Thanks.

[Porter]

Hi Rose, I used to take this to mean Jesus literally laid His life down when He physically died, and that He then literally resurrected Himself. But now you got me thinking; is there some deeper spiritual aspect to this? I did some digging around in the bible and learned a few things, but those things may need verification from who ever is willing. Either way, here's what I found from Ray on the subject.

https://bible-truths.com/email13.htm

The world thinks that Jesus was just a good man that was brutally murdered by the Jews: that is not what happened. Jesus voluntarily gave his life, that's right, he did not have to die but he chose to die for you and for me and the rest of the world. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. John 1:17-18 KJV

Whom do you love enough to voluntarily die for? Jesus died for the people that were torturing him to death.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelations 13:8 KJV

You did read that verse right, Jesus knew before he created the world that mankind was going to turn away from GOD and that he would have to die in order to redeem them.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,6719.msg53823.html#msg53823

His Father says, 'well done Son, but if You are going to pay it, I'm going to hold you to it.' He said, okay, and the Father says, 'You sure You want to do this?'  He says, Yea I want to do it. Did His Father say I'm going to make you pay their debts? Go out there and gather up their debts and I'm going to make You, I'm going to force You and in fact I'll beat the tar out of You if You don't pay their debts? Do we read that in the Scriptures anywhere?

Jesus is Himself of His own volition volunteering to be an OFFERING for these debts. He is OFFERING [the verb] to be the OFFERING [the noun]. Jesus Christ said;

John 10:18  No man takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Does it not say that? Did He have to die? He volunteered! But His Father said, okay I'm going to hold You to it. Now Jesus Christ has all these debts on His shoulders, trillions of dollars worth of debts, because He says I will take them, I will pay them. Did He at any place or time in His life incur those debts? No! Is He guilty of those debts that we all committed? No! Does He become our debt? Can we say now, 'I didn't commit any sins, He did? Did the Father ever say, since You volunteered to pay their debts, You've guilty of their debts?  Did He ever say that?

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3720.0.html


Grace will save you, so why die? Did Christ have to die? Why did God want to die? Why would God want to become a man? When I say God I'm talking about Jehovah, Jesus Christ. Did the Father 'make' His Son Jesus die? Did He 'take' His Son's life? NO!

John 10:17  For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father."

Jesus VOLUNTEERED HIS LIFE for us!! While we were yet sinners (Rom. 5:08). What the law couldn't do and we couldn't do, CHRIST DID (Rom. 8:3).

We must experience sin before we can be saved from it! How did Elohim come to a knowledge of "good and evil?" We aren't told.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,11521.0.html

You see that word, He was MADE. He wasn't always that way. He had to be MADE that way. Now, if He were just a man born of a woman, He wouldn't have had to be made anything.  Any man born of a woman will die. "It is appointed unto all men once to die," but the only way Jesus could die was that God had to MAKE Him lower than the angels, so that He could die. Are you following me? Does it make sense? That Jesus was not 'just' born, before He got to the process of actually being born. He had to be MADE something else from what He was. WHY? Because what He was, He couldn't die. God didn't force this on Him. We learn all through the scriptures, Jesus Christ 'volunteered.'

John 10:17  Therefore doth my Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
v. 18  No man takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

He said nobody takes My life. God the Father did not say, I'm going to sacrifice You, come hell or high water and You aren't going to have nothing to say about it. He said, "I lay down My life," "I" do it, He says. He volunteered.

So, He was made a little lower than the angels for or because of the fact that He had to die.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
================================================================

If I could try to articulate what I have learned, it would be to say Jesus held back his human nature for our sakes. He laid His life or soul (as some translations put it) down for us. He didn't let His human emotions overcome Him because His Father wouldn't let it happen. The very means by which Jesus' Father didn't let it happen is by the means of love. The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father.   

Jesus fasted by humbling Himself with the understanding He could do nothing of Himself. He made Himself lower than the messengers through the belief we are worth dying for; the sinless died for the sinful. If we are in Him we are not able to sin [a certain sin], so we too must "die" to ourselves for those that do sin. Like Jesus, we understand people can't help to be the way they are, so why blame them? It's only by the goodness of God that anyone repents.

1Jn 3:17  Whoever has the means of life of the world, and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Our death is through mercy and compassion, and these are accomplished by and in the Spirit where no one can see except God. Are we not after all seeking His praises of love and mercy rather the praises of men?

Mat 6:3  But you doing merciful deeds, do not let your left know what your right hand does,
Mat 6:4  so that your merciful deeds may be in secret. And your Father seeing in secret Himself will repay you in the open.

If these are how Jesus laid His life down, how did He pick His life back up? Is it in the same way we saw Him going into heaven?

Luk 21:27  And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory.

Joh 17:5  And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the existence of the world.

The next question that comes to mind is, is Jesus still the humble man He became before He humbled Himself to the point of death? I don't think so because He does not give glory to Himself does He?

Mat 28:18  And coming up Jesus talked with them, saying, All authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Me.

That same Spirit is now alive in you, made possible by the fact He was given all authority in heaven and earth. I know how hard that is to believe because I wrestle with the idea daily. Doubt, disbelief and even vanity are my best friends, so it's incumbant for me that I try to understand them fully through experience. Perhaps that is how faith is tried and then made better.

What do you think, Rose? Am I close? Whether you or anyone agrees or disagrees or sees it a better way, it would really help. I have no problem trying to feel after Him like a blind man because at the very least I know He isn't far from any one of us; He is real and a rewarder of those who seek Him.

By the way, I'm not denying the fact Jesus literally and volunteerily died and was raised from the dead. Everyone here knows that is true. However, maybe not everyone knows He denied His human nature to be able to have compassion and mercy on us now that He knows how that feels personally. Was He was saved from "death" before He ever died physcially?

Heb 5:7  During His earthly life, He offered prayers and appeals, with loud cries and tears, to the One who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.
Heb 5:8  Though a Son, He learned obedience through what He suffered.

This reminds me of where Ray said how Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, in the same way Jonah was in the belly of the whale (with all the nastiness that comes with that) for the same amount of time.

https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

Was Jesus "literally" dead in His tomb for "three days and three nights" as He used as a sign for the Pharisees? How does one get "three days AND three nights to fit between Good Friday sunset and Easter Sunday morning? That's "literally" only one day and two nights. The answer is in understanding that the sign of Jonah is not literal, but is rather a parable also. What is "the heart of the earth?" It does not stand for His tomb or grave.
==================================================================

Unfortunately, I cannot find the exact quote where Ray went into detail about Jesus being in the heart of the earth where He experienced the worst humanity had to offer while Jesus was still alive.

Which brings me to another verse:

Act 2:27  because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.

It's widely believed this is talking about Jesus' dead body not rotting in the tomb having only been in the tomb for a couple of days. I myself am not fully convinced that is all it means, even if partially true.

1Co 15:54  But when this corruptible [...the flesh is weak. - Mat. 26:41] shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory."

Is 1Co 15:54 any different from these?

Gal_3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:22  For you have put off the old man, as regards the former behavior, having been corrupted according to the deceitful lusts,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:12  Therefore, as elect ones of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, long-suffering,
Col 3:13  bearing with one another and forgiving yourselves, if anyone has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so also you should forgive.

How could Jesus be heard (Heb. 5:7) if Jesus was unable to speak being physcially dead? Was Jesus saved from two deaths; one of the physical and another of the spiritual? Not gonna lie, this stuff is so hard to understand. You always have some of the toughest questions Rose. Sorry if I may have confused you in all my fumbling about trying to understand or that I didn't help any. Perhaps what Ray said about all this is enough. I can rest in that.

[Musterseed]

Wonderful find Porter, thank you.

Rose , I found this short email from Ray.

Dear Reader
Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body... 1 Corth.15:44-50

For the benefit of those with physical eyes, Jesus appeared numerous times
in human form.

John 20:15, John 21:14, Luke 24:13-16

Porter... I typed heart of the earth in the search engine and there is a
post by Dennis from Ray  Mar.26, 2010, called Was Jesus in the heart
Of the earth for three days and three night's?

In the heart of the earth is a parable that does have a second witness.
I'm sure you will find it.
That search engine is great and always works for me.

All praise and glory to our Lord Jesus Christ.
God Bless You All, love Pamela 💕

[aktikt]

See this thread.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,17532.msg160254.html#msg160254

[Porter]

Thanks aktikt, that helped immensely with understanding the physical aspect of Jesus' death and resurrection. However, it seems the former member named microlink, whom Anjel was quoting from the link you provided, may be conflating the amount of time Jesus was dead in the tomb with Jesus being in the heart of the earth. Thus, microlink completely missed the whole point of the parable of Jonah in the belly of the whale.

I'm not saying microlink said that with the intention of deceiving, as he may not have been aware of Ray's revised understanding of that parable five or six years before microlink said all that. 

Thank you so much Pamela, I found it with your tip about searching on this forum. Here is a short quote from Ray and a link if anyone is interested.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,11616.msg100492.html#msg100492

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone.

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this:

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.
===================================================================================

There are a number of verses from various translations of the bible that state that Jesus was raised from AMONG or OUT from "the dead". I'm hoping the difference will make the difference.

Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham hath offered up Isaac, being tried, and the only begotten he did offer up who did receive the promises,
Heb 11:18  of whom it was said--`In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
Heb 11:19  reckoning that even out of the dead God is able to raise up, whence also in a figure [Greek: parable] he did receive him.

Abraham did not actually sacrifice Isaac, so Isaac did not die, but Isaac was as good as dead as far as Abraham was concerned. Isaac is a type of Christ, Christ being the true spiritual Seed.

Gal_3:16  Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ.

Here's a quote from the Psalms, they were written about Jesus.

Psa 88:2 Let my prayer, come into thy presence, Bow down thine ear to my loud cry.
Psa 88:3 For my soul, is sated with misfortunes, And, my life—unto Hades, hath drawn near;
Psa 88:4 I am counted with them who descend into the pit, I have become as a man that is without help;
Psa 88:5 Among the dead, is my couch,—Like the slain that lie in the grave, Where thou rememberest them no more, Yea, they, from thy hand, are cut off;
Psa 88:6 Thou hast laid me, In the lowest pit, In dark places, In the deeps:
Psa 88:7 Upon me, hath rested thine indignation, And, with all thy breakers, hast thou caused affliction. Selah.

Can you see how these all agree perfectly with Jesus being in 'the heart of the earth' for three days and three nights "among the dead" as Jonah was? But the Father did not leave His Son in that corruption, in that dust of the earth, that Hades where the spiritually dead know nothing, where we once were. Neither will the same Spirit of the Father and Son leave us in that condition, either.

Compare that quote from Psalms to the parable stating Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights.

Jon 2:1  Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from inside the fish:
Jon 2:2  I called to the LORD in my distress, and He answered me. I cried out for help in the belly of Sheol; You heard my voice.
Jon 2:3  You threw me into the depths, into the heart of the seas, and the current overcame me. All Your breakers and Your billows swept over me.
Jon 2:4  But I said: I have been banished from Your sight, yet I will look once more toward Your holy temple.
Jon 2:5  The waters engulfed me up to the neck; the watery depths overcame me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
Jon 2:6  I sank to the foundations of the mountains; the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever! But You raised my life from the Pit, LORD my God!
Jon 2:7  As my life was fading away, I remembered the LORD. My prayer came to You, to Your holy temple.
Jon 2:8  Those who cling to worthless idols forsake faithful love,
Jon 2:9  but as for me, I will sacrifice to You with a voice of thanksgiving. I will fulfill what I have vowed. Salvation is from the LORD!
Jon 2:10  Then the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

Here's the best part. Jonah (in Jonah 2:6) compares being in the fish to being in a prison on earth. This prompted me to remember what Peter said.

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.
1Pe 3:19  In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison
1Pe 3:20  who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared; in it, a few--that is, eight people--were saved through water.
1Pe 3:21  Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
1Pe 3:22  Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God's right hand, with angels, authorities, and powers subjected to Him.

Peter states that Jesus went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison in 1Peter 3:19. Jonah also made a proclamation to the people in the city of Nineveh.

Jon 3:4  Jonah set out on the first day of his walk in the city and proclaimed, "In 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5  The men of Nineveh believed in God. They proclaimed a fast and dressed in sackcloth--from the greatest of them to the least.

In 1Peter 3:18, Peter states that Jesus brought us to God while we were in prison, while Jesus was in the spirit. Was Jesus never in the spirit as a man even before He died? Yes, I believe Jesus was always in the spirit.

Now compare all this with the fact Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. What do we suppose Jesus in all that darkness was doing there? Why He was preaching repentance of course, just like Jonah.

Mat 4:16  The people who live in darkness have seen a great light, and for those living in the shadowland of death, light has dawned.
Mat 4:17  From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near!"

Tell me that these do not sound like the Hades of Jonah.

Luk 1:79  to shine on those who live in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Jesus is the light, but that darkness or corruption did not overcome Him while He was there.

Joh 1:5  That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it.

What is the bottom line? The bottom line is darkness represents spiritual Hades where the spiritually dead do not know God. Spiritual Hades represents total ignorance of the Lord. Jesus was never corrupted by that because He says:

Joh 7:28  As He was teaching in the temple complex, Jesus cried out, "You know Me and you know where I am from. Yet I have not come on My own, but the One who sent Me is true. You don't know Him;
Joh 7:29  I know Him because I am from Him, and He sent Me."

It's not the spiritually deads fault for not knowing God because Jesus says He never knew them to begin with, despite the fact they claim to know Him by calling Him Lord.

Mat 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?'
Mat 7:23  Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

I'll stop there for now, but I am interested in any thoughts the forum members may have.

[octoberose]

You gave me so much more than I asked for !  THANK YOU!  The search engine is hit and miss for me at times.  Maybe I'm too specific of too broad ?     I loved it when you said you didn't mind being the blind man looking for him, because he is not far from any of us. He is real and a rewarder of those who seek him.  _
And all the glory goes to Him.
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.  Romans 8:1

[Musterseed]

I agree with your post Porter.

The parable of the many called and the few chosen is everywhere, not just in the scriptures. I'm seeing it in life itself, it's everywhere. I think Ray once said " life
is a parable". I believe it.
You quote the perfect scripture of Matt. 7:21-23 .
The many don't have a true ,loving , obedient relationship with their Master.
They don't even know who the many are that call Jesus Lord , Lord.
Has anyone ever asked them who it is that calls Jesus Lord, Lord , prophesies in His Name JESUS, casts out demons in His name JESUS, does wonderful works in His name JESUS ? Is it the Jews ? The Muslims? The Buddhas? The atheists, Hindus,
or any of the other religions in the world?
They must read these scriptures right, but they can't see them or understand them.
Or maybe they are completely comfortable in their carnal state that they know
nothing about either.
What did Christ pray to His Father on the cross? Father forgive them, they don't
know what they are doing.
They are in the dark where they not only love the darkness but it's so dark that
they can't see . This world is getting older, colder and darker as Ray taught in the
creation days, the laws of thermodynamics and the evening and morning spiritual
connotation of those things.

A word I hear in the news a lot is UNCERTAINTY. That's Not knowing. People
don't like not knowing, it knocks the nose off of their fabled free will.
You need the faith of Christ to be comfortable... not knowing and yet trust that
God has everything under control. That's the Sovereign God that people hate.
Look at all the wonderful teachings on our website. They are marvellous and we don't hardly get any comments, some are very nice and some are thankful,
others are just plain stupidity and ignorance and stubbornness.
But even that is in God's plan. It's just amazing.  And this stuff on our website
is exposing a lot of corruption . God has a reason for everything, why does He have
Dennis put it all up there for the world to see? Is it just to get a few more people
to join our little flock?  I am sincerely asking all you members this question
because I have been thinking about it for quite awhile and I would like to know
what some of you think about this . Will there come a time when God will use
Bible- truths. Com to open many eyes and not just a few. I guess that's my question.  Please engage.
In Christ , Pamela💕

[Musterseed]

PS,,,, I get so discouraged with all this evil. It's so bad.
I'm sorry to bother you , I feel so sad.😭

[Porter]

Good question Pamela. I don't know if I have the right answer, perhaps you or someone could confirm by testing the spirits to see if it's true.

Why does God reveal Himself to only a few at this time? Maybe it's as simple as what Paul said.

Rom 9:15  For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
Rom 9:16  So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Rom 9:18  So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

What does this knowledge do for you? Faith, in my mind, is akin to understanding Him with my heart.

Rom 8:29  For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30  And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

The only reason they know God and believe He is truly all powerful, is because He knew them first from the beginning. It's His spirit after all that was there in the beginning with His Son. There is no male or female, Jew or Gentile, free or bond in His Kingdom because God is One.

Psa 82:6 I Myself have said:you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."

If you were known, then you know all this already.

God used Ray and bible-truths website to gather us together at this time. Many have left the forum, and I pray they continue to keep His word. God has only ever chosen a few to reveal Himself to throughout history through various people in various places. Does God change? In time, God will choose all of humanity to be His sons, "...every man in his own order" — 1Co_15:23. He will use the few to do this work for Him. But they, like the few, needs to repent of ever believing they were their own gods producing their own righteousness. There is no greater sin (as far as I know) than "free will" that needs to be repented of first.

The main bible-truths.com website is, as you say; a beacon of light for the earth. So what can you do?

Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15  No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lampstand, and it gives light for all who are in the house.
Mat 5:16  In the same way, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven.

Your "good works" flow from your heart into your mind and come out of your mouth because you believe them and can't help but to proclaim them. You don't even have to say a word for God to notice.

Rom 10:8  On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
Rom 10:9  if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Are we all teachers? Ray was a teacher who taught foolishness to those of us who would believe. Truly, the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. God still loves them, but they are unable to love Him back without a new heart that only He can provide. Like you said, they don't even know what they don't know. So have mercy and you too will be a son. They are our enemies for our sakes, in the same way we were His enemies for His sake.

Mat 13:24  He presented another parable to them: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mat 13:25  But while people were sleeping, his enemy came, sowed weeds among the wheat, and left.
Mat 13:26  When the plants sprouted and produced grain, then the weeds also appeared.
Mat 13:27  The landowner's slaves came to him and said, 'Master, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?'
Mat 13:28  "'An enemy did this!' he told them. "'So, do you want us to go and gather them up?' the slaves asked him.
Mat 13:29  "'No,' he said. 'When you gather up the weeds, you might also uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I'll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn. '"

We can't have wheat without weeds, can we? This might seem like I'm really stretching it here, but please bear with me and judge for yourselves. Remember Jonah in Sheol?

Jon 2:5  The waters engulfed me up to the neck; the watery depths overcame me; SEAWEED WAS WRAPPED AROUND MY HEAD.

It's gets better:

Joh 19:5  Then Jesus came out WEARING THE CROWN OF THORNS and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, "Here is the man!"
Joh 19:6  When the chief priests and the temple police saw Him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" Pilate responded, "Take Him and crucify Him yourselves, for I find no grounds for charging Him."

It is believed by some that the crown of thorns that was put on Jesus' head wasn't actually made of thorns, but rather, it was made out of a wreath of weeds. Anyhow, here is another:

1Th 2:19  For who is our hope, or joy, or CROWN OF BOASTING in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? IS IT NOT YOU?
1Th 2:20  For you are our glory and joy!

You wouldn't believe how many times we are likened to His crown.

Zec_9:16  The LORD their God will save them on that day as the flock of His people; FOR THEY ARE LIKE JEWELS IN A CROWN, sparkling over His land [...it gives light for all who are in the house. — Mat 5:15].

Here is another, I think it's my favorite because it doesn't even mention a crown outright.

Col 1:27  God wanted to make known to those among the Gentiles the glorious wealth of this mystery, WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY.
Col 1:28  We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ.
Col 1:29  I labor for this, striving with His strength that works powerfully in me.

One last one, but I assure you, you are written all over the Scriptures, in the same way your names are written in heaven.

Isa_62:3  You will be a GLORIOUS CROWN in the LORD's hand, and a royal diadem in the palm of your God.

This all goes back to believing Jesus did not "see" corruption in the heart of the earth. Why is that so important to believe? Because, God not only raised Jesus from among the dead, God raised us with Jesus at the same time so we would no longer be in the dark about Him; we love Him because He first loved us.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

Didn't He say He would never leave us? Doesn't that mean He is here now among and within us? Why then do we look for Him among the dead? He is like a hen gathering her chicks under her wings, but will they? Time will tell, I suppose.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
Rom 10:18  But I ask, "Did they not hear?" Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.
Rom 10:19  But I ask, "Did Israel not understand?" First, Moses said: I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that lacks understanding.
Rom 10:20  And Isaiah says boldly: I was found by those who were not looking for Me; I revealed Myself to those who were not asking for Me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he says: All day long I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and defiant people.

[Musterseed]

I cried all through this post. I love all of these scriptures Porter.
They are in Spirit and Truth as are all of your posts and i sincerely
appreciate your taking the time to respond.
I cry just reading the Bible these days. Our Lord is so good.
I find myself getting a little hot under the collar lately with all this Apostasy.
I feel so sad for people and yet I know ..... it is an experience of evil God
has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by.( ECC.1:13)

I know this and still get so aggravated. This waiting is hard and I am beginning
to have more pain and suffering lately. It's all necessary but sometimes I feel
like I'm not growing. I feel stuck . Does this happen to anyone else. I want to make more progress and I know it's all in God's timing ,yet I sometimes feel impatient.
And that's not good.

The wisdom of this world is foolishness ( Greek: stupidity) with God. For it is written
He takes the wise in their own craftiness. ( 1 Cor. 3:19)

Sigh 😞 I see and hear so much stupidity, it's making me sick.

Im reading Hebrews now.
Ch.9:27...... and just as it is appointed for man to die once and after that comes judgement, 28.... So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many
will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

Titus 2:13.... waiting for our Blessed Hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ 14.. who gave Himself for us to redeem us from
all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are
zealous for good works.

Maybe I am a little too eager and zealous and need to be more patience.I think
there will be a lot more hardship coming. I pray for wisdom and endurance for all of us. God  bless you all, dear brothers and sisters in these trying times.
Come Lord Jesus

Thank you Porter and yes I see the Lord not far from the few everywhere in Scripture.
How about this...calyx... the sepals of a flower, typically forming a whorl
that encloses the petals and forms a protective layer around a flower in bud.
Ex.25:33&35, Ex.37:19&21

Ah yes we are to be a sweet smelling fragrance to our Lord and we are a protected
flower. Isn't that just beautiful. But we are still yet in bud. God Bless Our Lord.

[Porter]

You're doing just fine, Pamela. Nothing wrong with being aggravated or even angry at all the injustice. As long as you understand that, ultimately, God is responsible for it all and that all things work together for good to them that love God. You have to keep that truth to the very end. Perhaps this is God's way of improving the faith He gave you. That faith will be severely tried. Satan will accuse you and do whatever it takes to try to make you feel condemned and like a total failure in God's eyes. Satan is very good at that sort of thing. Look back once in a while to see how far God has brought you. Forgive yourself as He has forgiven you.

I'm often in a lot of pain too, physical and emotional. I think many of us here and many out there are that way. I'm not trying to minimize what you are experiencing, but what I'm trying to say is that the things you're going through are being accomplished in the rest of us as well.

1Pe 5:6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that He may exalt you in due time,
1Pe 5:7  casting all your care upon Him, because He cares about you.
1Pe 5:8  Be sober! Be on the alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.
1Pe 5:9  Resist him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are being experienced by your brothers in the world.
1Pe 5:10 Now the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, will personally restore, establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little.
1Pe 5:11  To Him be the dominion forever. Amen.   

Feeling stuck is normal if it's anything like Satan putting us into prison.

Rev 2:10  Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer. Look, the Devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will have tribulation for 10 days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I love that about the flowers. I saw an image not too long ago that looked exactly like the description you gave.

I can say with the utmost confidence that I'm quite terrible at saying things like this, for that I'm sorry. It may have something to do with the over bearing pressure to be a man. Just know that God sees your good deeds and that is all that matters.

[Wendy]

Hi Pamela


Sorry to hear you're feeling this way. I pray the Lord comforts you through this .I too feel overwhelmed at times like I'm not going anywhere. I'll read and pray it just seems like it's the same old thing every day but like the Biible says it's all in God's time. Watching our family members suffer, and all the gloomy news going on around the world definitely can take its toll on you.
You're so right Porter definitely by looking back we can see where we've been and where we are now. And the changes that have taken place are absolutely amazing.
Thanks Porter and everyone who answered your post on here it really is good reading
God bless
Wendy

[Musterseed]

Thank you Porter
I will remember God is responsible and God works all things together for those
that love Him. And we all love Him , that's for sure.
I have great confidence in God's plan for humanity and I know it's going to be awesome. Lately I have been wanting to say ( to parrot Arc) "hurry up Lord.

I am sorry you are in pain Porter . I don't like to see people hurting and yet it is
a huge part of living life in this world. I have no problem with love not the world.
I am so grateful for bible-truths and all my brothers and sisters. I love you all and
pray for you every day. I can't wait until we are all together with our Lord.
Thanks again my friend for your consolation. I pray for you and your family Porter.

Wendy, thank you for your support and prayers. Yes all the gloomy news does take
it's toll on me , but again I have to remember it's all part of the plan. It's all of God.
Knowing that is comforting especially when it involves our children and grandchildren.
I pray for your family Wendy, May God Bless you all.

God Bless bible-truths

In Christ, Pamela

[HoneyLamb56]

Thank you Octoberose for starting this thread.  So thankful for the wisdom and insight you all bring to this forum!  It's not coincidence that just before easter I had also been thinking about the resurrection.  My thoughts always bring me to search this forum.  Once again, it's the Spirit's leading us back to solid biblical understanding to get answers.  My thoughts align with what has been said about all the doom, gloom, apostosy etc.  God's will will be done in order for what He wants to accomplish in His plan; we get it and are strenthened in this knowledge,   but it is hard to get others to understand that God uses evil at times to bring about His purposes.  Knowing this helps me to have compassion for others especially in my own household. 

May God continue to bless this forum and Youtube so that His truths are revealed to many more.

Diane

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll try later to read and absorb and possibly reply to what followed, but I want to first respond to the OP.

Simply, I "take up my life" again every morning.  I don't, however, consciously awaken myself.  Whatever it might be that acts upon me to awaken, it's not by conscious choice or effort that I cease sleeping. 

I think that's what Jesus is saying...not that He can raise/did raise Himself from the dead.

Sorry if that wasn't actually your question.

[octoberose]

Hi Dave, yes that's exactly what I had in mind and a good way to look at it.  I've been talking to people who are trinitarians and Boy do they not like what I have to say.  So, they think Jesus raised himself since he's the second of a trinity or some such nonsense.  I know, why am I doing this but it's hard for me to be quiet in the face of what we know is wrong.  But, when they want to know how I can defend Jesus not being God- well, I don't say that. I say he's the Son of God, our Saviour and Lord, the Lamb of God.  But , Jesus did say before Abraham was, I AM.  That's harder for me to articulate.  He's the family of God.  What else do we need to say ?  I'm afraid it's not enough.