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Extol

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preterism
« on: September 12, 2006, 06:02:02 AM »

Greetings Friends,
 For several years I have believed in past fulfillment of prophecy (preterism), including a first-century, spiritual return of Christ. I came to this conclusion from studying the Scriptures and the history of first-century Israel. However, since reading some material at bible-truths.com I'm not so sure....but I would like to know more. Unless it is somewhere I haven't looked, I really have not seen Ray give many Scriptures refuting preterism. He gives the 'is, was, and is to come' verse, but I don't see how that disproves preterism. Preterists don't believe that EVERYTHING is in the past...they believe that prophecy has been fulfilled in the past, and that God still reigns. Ray once wrote that it was obvious that all prophecy has not been fulfilled, but I would think that he of all people would understand the "spiritual fulfillments" that preterists believe in. Can anyone give some Scriptures to help me out? For now I can't seem to get past the seemingly clear time statements of Scripture:
"THIS generation"--Matt. 24:34
"there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked"--Acts 24:15
"the judgment ABOUT TO come"--Acts 24:25
"the consummation of ALL is NEAR"--1 Peter 4:7
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained."--1 Cor. 10:11
" For the Son of Mankind is about to be coming in the glory of His Father, with His messengers, and then He will be paying each in accord with his practice."--Matt. 16:27
and many others....
 Thanks !!
 EXTOL
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hillsbororiver

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Re: preterism
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2006, 08:36:38 AM »

Here is a bit from Ray's "Lake of Fire Part VII,"      http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html

If you look at the prophecies as speaking to believers in every generation I think your perceptions will change,



PRETER WHO?

For centuries theologians have written books on such unscriptural prophecy theories as, "Preterism," (all has been fulfilled in the past), and "Futurism, (all is yet to be fulfilled in the future). I get emails all the time asking if I am a Preterist or a Futurist? I tell them, "No, I am a Jesus-ist" (just kidding—I think I coined a new word).

Why, oh why, don’t they just listen to Jesus? Can you not all see from what I presented above, that the book of Revelation is neither "Preterist" nor "Futurist?"

THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS TO ALL CHURCHES, IN ALL GENERATIONS, FOR ALL WHO READ THIS PROPHECY, WHEN JESUS OPENS IT TO THEM, IN THEIR OWN LIFETIME (which comes quickly and is over shortly)!

I ask, "Why?" But, of course, I know the reason:

"He that has an ear, let him hear [SPIRITUALLY] what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 2:7).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 11).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 17).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 29).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 3:8).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 13).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 22).
JESUS OFTEN REPEATED HIS SELF

So why did I repeat the very same sentence SEVEN TIMES? I can’t take credit for that; it wasn’t my idea. Why would JESUS tell us the same thing SEVEN TIMES in just two chapters (I submit to you that they is only ONE chapter—only ‘men’ would see the wisdom in breaking up the seven churches into two chapters).

When Jesus repeats something, it is because it is VERY important. When Jesus wanted to emphasize something, He prefaced His statements by repetition: "Martha, Martha…" "Simon, Simon…" "Verily, verily…"

And when Jesus says something three times, you have got to know that it is something EXTREMELY important:

"And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let his cup pass from Me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou will …

Again the second time

… And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying THE SAME WORDS" (Matt. 26:39, 42, 44).

What might it imply that Jesus has said seven times, "He that has an ear, let him HEAR …" This has got to be MOST important for Him to repeat it to all seven churches. Not only are the individual churches to hear what Jesus points out to them, but everything pointed out to the individual churches to be heard by ALL THE OTHER CHURCHES AS WELL.

"…let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches [all the churches]."

Doesn’t everyone have ears? Then why can’t they "hear" what Christ has to say to the seven churches? Because I already showed you very clearly in previous installments why people can’t understand Jesus. Why they can’t understand His parables such as Lazarus and the Rich man. Why they don’t believe MANY of the plain statements of God’s Word, such as I Tim. 3:4 and 4:10. It is because you can’t hear the real meaning of God’s words with physical and carnal ears! And many of the leaders are among themost carnal in the church.

THE DEVIL MAKES MAN MINDFUL OF PHYSICAL THINGS

The devil has always been mindful of physical, literal, material things. That’s what Satan "dines" on—

"…DUST [of man] shall you eat all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: ‘swallow up’]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Yes, the Adversary eats "dust" and we, mankind, ARE "dust" of the ground. Satan does not feast on spiritual food—it would choke him! Satan dines on the carnal [flesh/meat] mind of men. While Jesus was physically starving for forty days, He was feasting on spiritual food from heaven! Satan thought he could trick Jesus into satisfying His need for physical FOOD before He was finished dining on spiritual food with His Father!

"Then was Jesus led up of THE SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered" […and so was STARVING, The Four Gospels By C.H. Rieu].

And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If you be the Son of God, command that these stones be made BREAD" (Matt. 4:1-3).

Satan should have realized that one doesn’t tempt a Spiritual Giant with a loaf of physical bread.

IT TAKES SPIRITUAL EARS TO HEAR SPIRITUAL WORDS

Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):

"WHY do ye [all of us] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).

"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

Practically the whole Church believes and teaches that Jesus spoke literal little stories about physical people, places, and things, so that everyone could understand Him. One cannot hear words of spirit with physical ears.

All they heard were the physical vibrations in the air against their physical eardrums. Their heart and mind and spirit didn’t hear a thing! We just read the Scriptures above, where the greatest theologians and thinkers in the law could not "hear" and understand Jesus. Little has changed in two thousand years!

As long as people think what Jesus taught was physical, and material, and literal, then they will never understand. Were the parables given to enhance understanding? I speak as fool (read Matt. 13). Were the teachings of Jesus, temporary, physical, literal? Let Him answer:

"…the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63)!

Parables have a SPIRITUAL meaning, and all of Christ’s teachings are SPIRITUAL. And that is because His very "words" ARE SPIRIT! Remember that Revelation is the "revelation OF Jesus Christ," it is HIS testimony. The "words" of His testimony are therefore, also, "SPIRIT."

So once again: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says…" What "who" says? Just "who" is doing the speaking here in Revelation? "…hear what THE SPIRIT says…" It is "the SPIRIT" speaking to the churches, and the words being spoken are those of Jesus, which "words are SPIRIT," and "the LORD [Jesus Christ] is that SPIRIT…" (II Cor. 3:17).

BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY

But just how is it that Jesus Christ "comes quickly?" Ah, now we are getting into the marvelous revelation of this grand book. The key is found in the very first use of this word "quickly."

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto THEE quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5).

Does Jesus come "quickly" to rule for a thousand years, or to set up the white throne judgment? Notice in what way Jesus comes "quickly."

Here is the first verse in which Jesus says He will come "quickly":

"…repent and do the first works or else I will come unto THEE quickly…" (Rev. 2:5).

Who is this, "thee?" It is the CHURCH! But more specifically it is the members that make up the Church.

It is, of course, the members of the church that have "left their first love." Here is absolute proof that the churches of Revelation personify the whole Church of God down through the centuries until the great white throne judgment.

Whatever is found in the seven (the complete) churches of Revelation is also found in the Churches from the time of John’s vision until the judgment of the world. This vision shows not only the conditions in God’s Church at the time of John’s vision, but of the condition of the Church right down till the judgment of the world.

Revelation is "The Revelation OF Jesus Christ." It is not just a revelation from Jesus Christ. It is a Revelation OF Jesus Christ HIMSELF! If we can only believe what Jesus says of Himself:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Therefore the book of Revelation also contains what WAS, IS, AND IS TO COME!

Read and understand:

"Blessed is he that READS and they that HEAR the words of this PROPHECY, and KEEP those things which are written therein: for the time IS AT HAND."

John to the seven churches which are in Asia

"…Write the things which you HAVE SEEN [past], and the things WHICH ARE [present], and the things which SHALL BE HEREAFTER [future]" (Rev. 1:2-3 & 19).

There it is. Can you see it? The "time is at hand." For what? For, "he that reads and they that hear the words of this prophecy…" When would that be? Whenever the "he that reads and they that hear" are alive and reading this prophecy.

Here then is how Jesus comes quickly to "THEE." People have lived, read this prophecy in Revelation, and then at some time thereafter, died. They have lived, read, and died. Millions upon millions have already, lived, read this prophecy, and later died. When does Jesus Christ come to the readers of this prophecy? When they are alive. How long is that?

"For what is your LIFE? It is even a VAPOUR, that appears for a little time, and then VANISHES AWAY" (James 4:14).

If Jesus is to "come to thee," dear reader, He must come "quickly," because I don’t care how many years you may live; your life will be over "SHORTLY!"


Hope this helps,

Joe
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Kat

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Re: preterism
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2006, 10:45:07 AM »


Hi EXTOL,

I found this in e-mails to Ray.
I hope it is of help to you.

---------------------------------------------------------------
[Ray Replies]

Dear David:

Thank you for your email and comments about preterism.

I do comment from time to time on this theory, however, I have not ever handled it as a separate paper. I am at least a little familiar with the preterist and futurist approach to prophecy.

David, what if there is a third approach? The Scriptural approach? Would you be ready to consider that? I cover this principle in passing in Part X of my series on "The Lake of Fire."

Let me let the Scriptures shatter BOTH the preterist and futurist theory on prophecy fulfillment.  I'll not attempt to harmonize all of the prophecies of Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Matt. 24 and the the book of Revelation in one email. I have sixty more emails to answer. Hope you understand.

I think we can all agree that the Book of Revelation covers a larger assortment of prophetic world events than the rest of the prophets put together. The Book of Revelation is "the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." (It is decidedly NOT the revelation of St. John the Divine).  And just what is "the testimony" of Jesus Christ? 

"...for the testimony of Jesus is THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY" (Rev. 19:10).

Now then, is this prophecy of Revelation futurist or preterist? IT IS NEITHER! The answer is so simple, but who will believe it? I will give you the answer (not a full explanation, JUST THE ANSWER -- for now anyway):

"The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which God gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY [or QUICKLY, is this 'preterist'? -- see my Series on the Lake of Fire for an explanation of this statement] come to pass; and He sent and SIGNIFIED [symbolized] it by His angel unto His servant John:  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.  Blessed is HE THAT READS ['futurist'?], and THEY THAT HEAR [those in John's day? Or those during the middle ages? Or those in these latter days?] the words of this prophecy ['futurist'?], and KEEP those things which are written therein; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND ['preterist'? I cover this phrase in my Lake of Fire series]."

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto YOU [just the seven literal, physical, churches in Asia during the first century? Remember that this 'testimony' of Jesus is SPIRITUAL, Rev. 19:10. "Hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches, 2:7, 11, 17, etc.], and peace, from Him WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH  IS  TO COME..."!!! (Rev. 1:1-4).

There is your SCRIPTURAL ANSWER, David. Everything in the Book of Revelation (which is the testimony--the prophecy of Jesus Christ), leading up to the consummation of all things, differs not from Jesus Christ Himself which, "IS, WAS, AND WILL BE." See, Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17; 16:5, etc. Preterists deny the FUTURE: Futurists deny the PAST: BOTH deny THE NOW -- what presently "IS"!

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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Laren

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Re: preterism
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 11:08:03 AM »

I don't think preterists ignore the now or "is", they just believe the now is "grace" for all men, not just his first fruits.  They believe Christ  has come and destroyed the law, he fufilled it, he is King and reigning now, and people are now being awakened to what Christ has done. 

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

The difference to me (in my limited knowledge) is that preterists believe that the grace of God is to all men right now, and "is and will be ists" believe that his grace is for the firstfruits/elect right now, and the remaining world later. 




 

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buddyjc

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Re: preterism
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 01:26:59 PM »

Hey Laren,

Yes, grace has 'appeared' to all men, but are all men being graced by God?  Grace in Titus 2:12 'teaches' us to live godly.  Are all men right now being taught to live godly?  The Greek word for 'teaches' means 'to train up' or 'chastise.' 

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.

For sure, grace has become evident in this age, but not all men are experiencing this grace in their lives. 

Brian

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Laren

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Re: preterism
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2006, 03:08:43 PM »

Hey Laren,

Yes, grace has 'appeared' to all men, but are all men being graced by God?  Grace in Titus 2:12 'teaches' us to live godly.  Are all men right now being taught to live godly?  The Greek word for 'teaches' means 'to train up' or 'chastise.' 

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.

For sure, grace has become evident in this age, but not all men are experiencing this grace in their lives. 

Brian



Hi Brian, I think a word study on appeared is interesting, especially how it is used in other scripture too.  Here is strong's

appeared:

epiphaino {ep-ee-fah'-ee-no}
2014

1) to show to or upon

a) to bring to light

2) to appear, become visible

a) of stars

3) to become clearly known, to show one's self



 

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Extol

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Re: preterism
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 04:51:30 PM »

hey guys,
 thanks for your responses :)
 mongoose i can understand your feelings...part of the reason why i became so interested in preterism was because of all the phony scripture-twisting done by things like Left Behind. i wanted the TRUTH, and i knew there was very little of it in the popular "rapture--end times" theology. with each day i am becoming better at seeing things spiritually, although i am still unsure what the second coming of Christ really was\is\will be.
 Extol
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