The Once Saved Always Saved Teaching Misleading?

[robtjr30]

Ok there is this teaching that is Once you are Saved in Jesus Christ that you are Aways Saved and that teaching most preachers say, "You Cannot Lose Your Salvatation No Matter What You Do After You Are Saved."

Can anyone shed light on this teaching is it something Satan uses to lull the Saved into spiritual sleep so that they may lose there trust in Jesus?
I don't know much about this teaching.

[orion77]

Hello, Ray speaks about this in his articles.  My daughter in law, last year was going to a church with family members and prayed the sinners prayer and everybody was so glad she got saved, but that doctrine only makes one not study the word of God.  When one thinks that is it, nothing else to do, they can never grow from faith to faith.  I think that is a huge stumbling block for many not to desire to seek for truth.

God bless,

Gary

[Andy_MI]

Amen Gary, well said.

Here's some incentive to continue to grow in the Lord.

Mat 10:22 KJVR
(22)  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Phi 3:7-11 Rotherham
(7)  But, whatever things, unto me, were gain, the same, have I accounted, for the Christ's sake, loss;
(  Yea, doubtless! and I account all things to be, loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for the sake of whom, the loss, of all things, have I suffered, and do account them refuse, in order that, Christ, I may win,
(9)  And be found in him—not having a righteousness of my own, that which is by law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is, of God, upon my faith,—
(10)  To get to know him, and the power of his resurrection and fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death,—
(11)  If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection, which is from among the dead:

To be in the first resurrection is much better than to be in the second.

Peace,

Andy

[Kat]

I believe this scripture, is where the teaching comes from. 
I heard it many times, during my church days.   

Joh 6:39  And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

This is speaking of those chosen, out of the called, to receive Christ in them.  It is not just saying the sinner pray, it is those who keep my commandments.   

Joh 14:21  The person who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I, too, will love him and reveal myself to him."
Joh 14:22  Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you are going to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
Joh 14:23  Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word. Then my Father will love him, and we will go to him and make our home within him.
Joh 14:24  The one who does not love me does not keep my words. The word that you hear is not mine, but comes from the Father who sent me.
Joh 14:25  "I have told you this while I am still with you.
Joh 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of all that I have told you.

It is the Holy Spirit (Christ in us) that will teach you, it is the only way you can gain understanding of the truth.  But He is only known when He is revealed, when our eyes are opened.

Luk 24:31  Then their eyes were opened, and they knew who He was. And he vanished from them.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[kennymac]

Hello,

This is a little lengthy. However it  helped see how the three resurrections are God's 3 harvest Festivals. Hope you find it helpful as well.

The feast days of Israel prophesy on three levels. Level One is the individual personal level. On this level, the Feast of Passover is fulfilled in us by our justification by faith in the blood of the Lamb. Passover was the feast where the people killed a lamb and put its blood on the door posts and lintel. As Christians, we know that Jesus is the true Lamb of God who fulfilled the type and shadow in His crucifixion at Passover. When we put our faith in His shed blood, we are justified by faith.

The Feast of Pentecost is the next step in our walk with God. This is the feast where God begins to write His law upon our hearts, for it was on this day that He first spoke the Ten Commandments to Israel in Exodus 20. Acts 2 gives us the manner of its fulfillment, as the Spirit came upon the disciples in the upper room, and they all heard the voice of God speaking in their own language. Pentecost does not deal with our justification, but with our sanctification. It is the feast wherein we begin to learn obedience and learn how to be led by the Spirit during our sojourn in the wilderness.

The Feast of Tabernacles is the final step in our walk with God. This feast gives us the fullness of the Spirit and brings us fully into the promise of perfection in our relationship with Him. These are the three main steps in our spiritual growth and maturity as we grow up into the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Level Two is the corporate fulfillment in the Church, or the Kingdom of God. On this level we see God's dealings with three Churches, or three stages of the Kingdom on earth. The Passover-level Church, or Kingdom, began with Moses at that first Passover, when Israel came out of Egypt. This first Church is called in Acts 7:38, "the church in the wilderness." This Passover-Age Church ended with Jesus' death on the Cross at Passover about 1,500 years later. It was an era where the Holy Spirit was WITH the people, but not IN them.

The second Church is the Pentecostal-Age Church, which began seven weeks after Jesus' resurrection, when the Spirit of God was sent on the day of Pentecost. On this day God renewed the Kingdom by giving it greater power and placing the Holy Spirit within the people. No longer was the temple an external house made of wood and stone. Now the people themselves were the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16).

The Pentecostal Age should have been a time when the Church learned the law of God and how to be led by the voice of the Spirit. Too often, however, the leadership in the various Church factions put away the law and removed from Christians the right to hear God's voice for themselves. In this they followed the example of King Saul, who stood ready to kill his own son, Jonathan, for tasting the sweet honey of the word in the heat of battle. That story is found in 1 Samuel 14.

29 Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land. See now, how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey."

That chapter is a historical allegory of the Church and well illustrates the problem during many centuries of the Pentecostal Age, when the Church forbade the people to read the Bible or to hear from God any voice that should go contrary to established orthodoxy of the Church.

The Kingdom of God in the Pentecostal Age did not bring righteousness to the earth, nor could it, because the Church was given only an earnest of the Spirit. Pentecost itself was a feast wherein God mandated that the firstfruits of the wheat should be baked with leaven. The lesson is clear: Pentecost cannot bring perfection to any individual, nor can its Church bring righteousness into the earth. That promise awaits the third and final feast and its Church, or Kingdom.

Level Three: The third Church is the Tabernacles Age Church. At the beginning of this age God will pour out the fullness of His Spirit upon the overcomers. They will rule with power in the earth and bring all things under the feet of Jesus Christ. Their ministry will bring righteousness and the fullness of truth into the earth. It will signal the greatest revival the world has ever seen, as the prophets foretell so often. This age, I believe, will last a thousand years, during which time the Kingdom of God will spread until it fills the whole earth. Habakkuk 2:14 tells us,

14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.

The waters cover 100% of the sea. So also will the knowledge of the God's glory cover the earth. This is the restoration of all things. This is the ultimate plan of God.

Even so, this is only the second level of fulfillment for the feast days. The highest level is the creation level. On this level we focus upon the feasts as harvest festivals, wherein God brings three harvests of souls into His "barn." The first harvest is that of the barley company, the overcomers. This occurs at the first resurrection, which John dates at the beginning of the seventh thousand-year period.

The wheat harvest, which is the Church in general, will be harvested in the second great appointed time at the Great White Throne judgment. This will occur at the end of the thousand years, or the beginning of the eighth thousand-year period.

At this time the unbelievers (grape harvest) will begin to be trodden down in order to cleanse and purify them, so that they too will be fit for the Master's use. The grape harvest will then be harvested at the end of time at the Creation Jubilee. We will have more to say about this in another chapter.           

Paul's Teachings on the Three Harvests
Paul is the only one who actually deals with the three harvests in a single passage. It is found in the great resurrection chapter, 1 Corinthians 15. In the first 21 verses, Paul deals with the importance of believing that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. He makes it clear that if Jesus was not raised from the dead, then our faith is all in vain, for His resurrection proves that the Spirit of God can indeed raise the dead. On this historic fact our faith hinges.

Then from verses 22 through 28 Paul deals with our own resurrections and tells us that there are three classes of people, three "squadrons," who shall be raised at different times in history. These three categories correspond specifically to the three main feast days of Israel. Paul makes this quite clear, as we will see.

1. Barley and Wheat Harvests

Paul begins his discussion of the resurrections by a general statement that lets us know where Paul is taking us. He says in 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." This plainly tells us that all are going to be raised in Christ, even as all died in Adam. Next, he tells us HOW this is to be accomplished, and we will see that not all are going to be raised at the same time.

23 But each in his own order [tagma, or "squadron"]: Christ the first fruits [or, "anointed firstfruits"], after that those who are [the] Christ's at His coming [parousia, "presence"].

Most people are agreed that Paul is here talking about two different resurrections. However, most also assume that the first resurrection is that of Jesus, who is the Christ, "The Anointed One." That is why we see it usually translated, "Christ the first fruits." The second resurrection is then taken to refer to all the believers, and no distinction is made between overcomers and the Church in general. We, however, have good reason to differ with this view.

Remember, Paul had already concluded his section dealing with the resurrection of Jesus. In verse 22 he turned his attention to OUR OWN resurrections, saying that all of us will be made alive, but each in his own order, or squadron. The Greek word translated "order" in the King James Version is tagma, which is actually a military term, referring to a body of soldiers. Paul is saying that we will be raised in three squadrons.

The first squadron is NOT "Christ the firstfruits," as most translators have mistakenly assumed.  There are three squadrons, and Jesus is not a squadron, but an individual. It should read the "anointed firstfruits." The Greek word christos means "anointed." Jesus is, of course, THE Christ—that is, "THE Anointed One." But the word christos does not always refer to Jesus. In fact, the word can be applied to anyone or any thing that has been anointed.

When the word christos is preceded by the definite article the, it usually refers to THE Christ—that is, to Jesus, who is "the Anointed One." However, when christos is used WITHOUT the definite article, it is indefinite and could refer to people or things that have been anointed and set apart for God's use. Prophets, priests, and kings throughout the Bible were all anointed, or "christened." The vessels of the temple and even Jacob's pillow (Gen. 28:18) were anointed

In 1 Cor. 15:22 the definite article is used in the original Greek, where Paul is talking about Jesus "the Christ," in whom all shall be made alive. Then in verse 23, the is used in the latter part of the verse, but not in the first part. This implies that the verse should have been understood as follows:

"But every man in his own squadron: (1) the anointed firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are the Christ's at His presence."

Once we realize that Paul was using the theme of Israel's three harvest festivals, his meaning is clear. Paul is here referring to Passover and Pentecost, the harvest of the barley and the wheat. The first "squadron" to be raised from the dead are the barley Overcomers; the second is the Church in general, the wheat harvest.

It is important to know that the firstfruits of the barley harvest were to be anointed with oil. Paul is referring to this fact here when he says, "anointed firstfruits." We read of this in Leviticus 23:13. Speaking of the barley firstfruits as distinct from the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, Moses says:

13 Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the LORD for a soothing aroma, with its libation, a fourth of a hin of wine.

And so, when Paul lists the first squadron of people who will be raised from the dead, he calls them the "anointed firstfruits." He had in mind the firstfruits of the barley harvest. These will rule and reign with Christ on the earth (Rev. 5:10; 20:6).

Those who belong to Christ, the Church in general, will inherit the second resurrection. These are portrayed in temple ceremony where the two loaves offered to God were first baked with leaven (Lev. 23:17). While oil signifies the Holy Spirit, leaven signifies sin (Exodus 12:15; Mark 8:15). This is the main difference between the barley and wheat, and it is obvious that Paul picks up on that difference in his discussion of the first two resurrections. The first is the anointed firstfruits; the second is leavened company, the Church in general.

2. The Grape Harvest

Paul does not stop with the second squadron of people raised to Life. He goes on to the third squadron, and, in fact, he spends more time on this squadron than the other two combined. It is the squadron signified by the grape harvest at the end of the growing season, which was the focal point of the Feast of Tabernacles. So note how Paul carries this theme into his dissertation on the third resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says [in Psalm 8:6], "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He [the Father] is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

Note how often Paul says these people are to be put "under His feet" or "subjected." There can be no doubt that Paul had the grape harvest in mind, for treading the grapes under foot was universally known to indicate judgment. This is absolutely consistent with the rest of Paul's writings, where he reveals how all things (ta panta, "the all") will be reconciled to God. Since reconciliation is a term indicating peace between ENEMIES, Paul is obviously referring to the rebellious nations of the earth who are enemies of God in this present age. Paul says that the purpose of creation is for all these nations to be subdued unto Christ.

Then when He has eliminated all His enemies (by turning them into friends), He will finally destroy that last enemy—death. One can only destroy death by giving Life. That is why we refer to this as a resurrection. Only when death itself is banished from the created universe will God be all in all.

[YellowStone]

Good question?

I remember attending a service in a church where all who wished to be "born-again" and be saved, were to step forward and be saved for all eternity.

I did, and to this day believe that it was the most selfish act that I have yet committed.

For what of the following Scripture.

Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Surely, if I am seeking to be in front of my fellow man, then I will be last.

1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

What will happen to the ungodly and sinners. Are they saved or not?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Yes they are, but did they earn it.

1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Can any one say that there ever was a single person (Christ included) that did NOT live according to the will of God.

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Once saved, always saved. Ray talks of this in great detail; is any one person on this earth not saved?

The teaching is irrelevant, misleading and pointless regarding the truth, which is:

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

I love it, God is in control of my destiny. All I have to do is enjoy it

Love and blessing to you all.

Darren

[snorky]

Thank you, Kennymac, for your profound post. May the Holy Spirit be with you always.--snorky

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi robtjr30

Ray has explained that "..no one is saved in this life. Here is why  Rom 8:24-25...For we are saved by HOPE (also by "grace" and  "the gospel")  but hope that is seen (seen as a fact, as in, 'I am already saved') is NOT HOPE, for what a man see's, why does he YET HOPE For (it)? But if we hope for that we see not (is not fulfiled fact as yet) then do we with PATIENCE (perserverance) WAIT FOR IT"

That should sort out alot for you I hope. It certainly cut through alot of garbage I'd been taught!.....

Also if you read Ray's Winning Souls for Jesus that will add much more perspective and I found it to be of great liberating help.

Arcturus

[robtjr30]

Where is Ray's Link on the Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine?

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

The teaching on this link might help you.

The teachings throughout what Ray has published, give evidence that the "once saved always saved " doctrine is false teaching leading to a false sense of security based on lies and heresy.

We are called to watch and pray and run our race working our our salvation...daily learning that Christ is Sovereign.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[gmik]

Boy, that was a good re read.

But....silly me I didn't check the dates and I thought Gary & Andy came back

[mrl1970]

It is the Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine that made me search for answers which led me to BT.

The preacher was teaching that if you are saved then disobey His commandments you would get your reward.
If you get saved and disobey God's commandments you would still be saved but lose your reward.

I do not remember for sure what verses he used but it could have been the following:


1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (King James Version)

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As we know those whose works are burned will be in the second resurrection and saved in the Lake of Fire.

[Zacman]

Hey all,

"You Cannot Lose Your Salvatation No Matter What You Do After You Are Saved."

The once saved always saved doctrine brings in the old backslidden christian syndrome.

It amazes me to think people could really think God is going to torture people who never heard the truth, and save people who knew the truth and live contrary to His word after they supposedly knew it.

This is standard right wing fundamentalism. (The once saved always saved doctrine that is.) That's why evangelists have alter calls and promote the idea that their converts are going to heaven after their supposed conversion.

How many of you all have gone to a funeral and heard a preacher say something to the order of this person made a commitment to God, or was saved or whatever.


I'll quote Ray on this one, "what a crock!".

The once saved always saved doctrine exploits the fact that Christendom doesn't have a clue about the judgment of believers now, (the elect), and the future corrective judgment of all in the second Resurrection.


Best regards,
and may God bless you all,

Zac

[YellowStone]

Hi Arcturus, and Everyone

Arcturus you wrote:

We are called to watch and pray and run our race working our our salvation....daily learning that Christ is Sovereign.

I just want to share some thoughts and Scriptures on this topic, after the above statment caught my attention.

However, are we really in charge of our own salvation in order that we must work it? I ask this in the Spirit of Truth, for Christ himself said that we can do nothing to further our stature.

Mat 6:27  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Christs words of course are true regarding those who ask God to save them; man may ask, but God does the drawing.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: 'drag him'].

Paul speaks of the benefits of being dragged by God, to Christ.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

There are three very important points made by Paul in the above.

    1. It is by grace we are saved
    2. Not by thoughts, words or actions.
    3. It is a GIFT from our GRACIOUS and ALL LOVING GOD

Why was Paul so adamant in pointing this out? Well the answer is found in the next two verses.

Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Whose works are being worked?   Not ones own, but God's which He ordained or planned for one to walk.

So just who is Paul referring to here? Who are the "we"?

Let's read on..... 

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (near) by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (per John 6:44)

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The "We" is all who have been drawn (dragged) by God and have been given the gift of truth and of salvation. What is more, collectively, the same make up the "new man" or body of Christ.

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 

1Cr 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 

This seems pretty clear and straight forward to me. All of this is by the graciousness and compassion of our God, for to him we owe everything.

To close, I want to copy the original post from the beginning of this thread. :

Ok there is this teaching that is Once you are Saved in Jesus Christ that you are Aways Saved and that teaching most preachers say, "You Cannot Lose Your Salvatation No Matter What You Do After You Are Saved."

Can anyone shed light on this teaching is it something Satan uses to lull the Saved into spiritual sleep so that they may lose there trust in Jesus?
I don't know much about this teaching.

The answer is simple; for by grace God has allowed some to be saved through faith. Grace alone and not by works, prayers or thoughts by oneself; salvation is a gift of God.  [Eph 2:8]

One CANNOT lose ones Salvation NO MATTER What One Does After Being Saved.   NOT if they are truly saved by Christ rather than the quick promise of man.

Because, at this time, being formed into the "new" body of Christ, we are truly doing the good works of God that he planned all along for, can we sidestep or fall away?

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What man alive can thwart God? 

No ONE!!! 

I hope this post is found in the spirit it was written.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Robert]

I have belonged to a 'once saved always saved' Church for 30 years. The line of argument assumes that the 'sinner's prayer' will get you born-again and once 'born into God's family' nothing can get you 'un-born.' The argument against those who say a Christian can 'lose their salvation' is: "what were we saved from?" (everlasting, eternal torture in a fiery HELL where the Rich man is right now!) If we were eventually 'lost' then we are not 'saved' and never were. ('The operation was successful but alas the patient died')

A careful study of calling, predestination and election will reveal that we are not called to be 'saved' but called to be 'conformed into the image of the Son' (Romans 8v29) so the evidence of calling is Christ-likeness, not having a date when we are 'saved'. Hope this helps.
Btw, unless you love spam, don't advertise you e-mail addy on your profile.

[seminole]

I heard this too at one time in my life. A friend of mine said she could do anything she wanted because "once saved always saved" . My problem with that is it doesn't give you free rein to go out and do un-godly things although she took it that way. Matter of fact if you have Jesus in your heart and life, you don't wish to do those same things anymore. If what you got is real it makes a difference.
Nole

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

Here is an excerpt from the above link.

Jesus Christ never converted a person in His whole ministry. It's just amazing. If you said that in a church they'd be throwing rotten tomatoes at you. In His whole ministry Jesus Christ never converted one person! Not one!
...11 second sinner's prayer....they have not a clue what they are talking about!!

When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted. About 120 of them. But Christ was leading them up to that.  And He's probably leading some of us up to that...

All these things take a lifetime. We're going to live "the seals". A third part of the men died: that's a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass...what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.

I think this shows the correct perspective. This perspective to me is soundly based on the word of God and is the honest truth that is so distorted by Church Doctrine's beliefs that are tailor made to fit the comfort mentalities of carnal thinking.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

This has been a great discussion

After further study of both the Scriptures and of Rays work, I can clearly see that their is a conflict between what I "see" as being saved from and that of Ray.

I will write this in the "first - person" so that I will not be seen as teaching.

Please know that I AM NOT suggesting that Ray is wrong    But please let me share where I WAS coming from.

I have always believed that Christ died for the yet ungodly, paying the ransom of death, so that "death" has no claim on me. Christ, saved me from Death; death being the endstate; total absence from Christ. NOTHING! 

Rom 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  

Sure, my body may die, but this is irrelevant.

Rom 14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Christ paid my ransom and through his death, death has no hold on me, for I belong to Christ.

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.  

Oh, I surely will be judged harshly and I am sure I will be cleansed as a result. Never did I ever believe that I was SAVED from that!

Well that's how I have always seen it.

Love in Christ to All,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

I am quoting excerpts from Ray's teaching Transcript about Repentance.

"..we repent in increments....

Forgiveness comes first. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...for our sins.

BEFORE the cross...were the Apostles converted yet? No, they weren't.

AT the Cross...Did they repent? No. Were they cleansed of their sins? No.

AFTER the cross...the Apostles and disciples really repented.

God PURIFIED their hearts. That's conversion! That's being born-again, begotten anew, regenerated, whatever word you want to use, that's what THAT is.

...there are four things that happen with sin:

1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed

...there comes a time when you have to just stop doing good things and repent of who and what you are. And then you will start to make real progress.

All have sinned.
God has forgiven all.
All will repent.
And all sin will be removed."

The grand finale - when all sin is removed, for me as I understand this, will only happen after God is all in all as is foretold He will be in the Scriptures. So for now, those who are being judged now,are in the process of purification.

Luke 21 : 36 Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and TO STAND before the Son of Man.

Peace to you

Arcturus