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Author Topic: The first shall be last?  (Read 3574 times)

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Deborah-Leigh

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The first shall be last?
« on: October 13, 2006, 04:47:33 PM »

i know we are all going to be saved....  that what God wills He gets....that there will be two resurrection types, one for those who have done good, and one for those that have done evil. John 5 : 28,29...." Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

THE QUESTION....Are the  FIRST and a LAST mirrored in John 5 : 29 do you think? 

IF SO.....then should i apply what Jesus says in Luke 7:47 ..."but for whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little." to also line up with the last will be first and the first last?......

Bottom line...can we say that the last will be first because they are forgiven much?

Arcturus ???

This is not to say that we should become sinners to become first. Jesus did not recommend the second death to anyone! ...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 04:56:52 PM by Arcturus »
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SandyFla

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2006, 04:58:42 PM »

I think what Jesus is saying here, are those who are first (or last in this world) will be last (or first in the next world).

Those being "first" now are the ones Christians look up to: pastors, teachers, etc. The "last" now are those considered on the lower rungs (lay people, students, custodians, etc.).

When Jesus chose His disciples, He didn't pick those in the upper echelon of the Jewish synagogues; He went to the tax collector and fishermen. In a way, our values upside down from God's POV.

Those whom we think should get the highest honors will get the lowest, while the man or woman who prayed behind closed doors, helped their neighbor, and did other anonymous deeds as unto Christ will be honored above them.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Sandy

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2006, 05:05:56 PM »

Thanks Sandy

Yes...I can see your line of faith :)...Matt 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in...


Arcturus :)
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orion77

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2006, 07:21:50 PM »

Hello Arcturus,

At this time, Jesus healed a man on the sabboath and the Jews were desiring to kill Him.  The ones who are alive are the ones who live by faith, and the ones who are dead are the ones who live by law.

(Joh 5:25 LITV)  Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.

Notice the hour is coming, and now is, when the ones hearing will live.  It is the ones who can't hear, who still under the law, the ministration of death, that cant hear or see.

(2Co 3:6 LITV)  who also made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of letter, but of Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.

(2Co 3:7 LITV)  But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, Ex. 34:34

(2Co 3:8 LITV)  how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory!


There are a few in each generation that hear the words of God.  The many are bound by law.  The ones who hear live now only, because Christ is in them, not of anything they did themselves.


(Luk 7:47 LITV)  For this reason I say to you, Her many sins are remitted, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little.


Here Jesus is speaking somewhat sarcastically, attempting to teach a lesson to a hypocrite.  We are all guilty and in need of being forgiven, no matter the amount of sin.  We are all the same, the difference is the ones who think they have done no wrong or little wrong and attempt to belittle another for their gross sins, is what He is saying.  We all know there is much to be forgiven in each of our lives and with this correct attitude, we are also able to love much.

Hope this can be of some help,

God bless,

Gary
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 04:22:08 AM »

YES GARY!

THAT's IT......That's the way, truth and it brings LIFE to my gasping need to understand and BREATHE!
I feel like I.ve been given and oxygen mask!

Bless you! I thank God HE CAUSED YOU to answer me.... ;D

Arcturus :)

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Layla

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2006, 09:24:42 PM »

I always thought the reference to the first shall last and the last shall be first was in reference to OT Church (Israel) and the NT Church (Israel) and the order of their entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peace,
Layla
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WillieH

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 02:45:16 AM »

WillieH: Hi Layla... peace...  :D

I always thought the reference to the first shall last and the last shall be first was in reference to OT Church (Israel) and the NT Church (Israel) and the order of their entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peace,
Layla

GOD's Word... a many layered onion! These type verses can have many meanings and applications...

Maybe the prettiest and handsomest will be admiring the ugliest in the next world eh?  ;D

Peace...  8)

In  JESUS ...willieH  ;)
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gmik

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2006, 12:09:57 AM »

Hi Willie, glad to see you over here!!

gena
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YellowStone

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2006, 02:48:21 PM »

Sandy wrote:

I think what Jesus is saying here, are those who are first (or last in this world) will be last (or first in the next world).

Those being "first" now are the ones Christians look up to: pastors, teachers, etc. The "last" now are those considered on the lower rungs (lay people, students, custodians, etc.).

When Jesus chose His disciples, He didn't pick those in the upper echelon of the Jewish synagogues; He went to the tax collector and fishermen. In a way, our values upside down from God's POV.

Those whom we think should get the highest honors will get the lowest, while the man or woman who prayed behind closed doors, helped their neighbor, and did other anonymous deeds as unto Christ will be honored above them.


I hear you loud and clear Sandy :)

Here are a couple more scriptures that give the same witness.

1Cr 1:27
  • But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


1Cr 1:28
  • And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:


Peace, Love and Joy to you,

Darren
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Layla

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 03:57:07 PM »

 Luk 13:29-30  And they shall come from the east, and [from] the west, and from the north, and [from] the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Quote
GOD's Word... a many layered onion! These type verses can have many meanings and applications...

Hi Willie

Yes I agree.  More specifically what I am seeing is the FIRST chosen was OT Israel, but because of unbelief and rebellion that house has been made desolate and will not be restored until the time the wicked are restored LAST.

Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

The election (chosen overcomers) who are LAST in terms of appearance are faithful and shall be restored FIRST partaking of the first resurrection.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Peace,
Layla
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 04:06:20 PM by Layla »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 06:53:27 PM »

Hi Layla

That was very comprehensively written! and soundly explained! :)

Scripture...the words that Jesus speaks are spirit and are life that has extensive meaning....Can we apply "The first shall be last and the last shall be first" in our lives perhaps....like when we submit to being last, when we lower ourselves, when we do not contest or oppose or sit in the way of sinners? When we accept persecution for refuting with evidence, (as Ray does) false doctrines or heresy.....or do we cower under a blanket of peace (sit in the way of sinners) which for me is a disguise for self protection, (putting ourselves first and offering nothing ) when we encounter false teaching..

Let me be the first to answer this contentious question....I have done this... because  I have percieved that blindness is unteachable and this has justified me sharing nothing....I should have been willing rather to express my understanding no matter how contrary it appears and no matter how threatening to idolitary of the heart to those who hear...but I should do this with a spirit of gentlness and humbleness...Do I do this...? Have I ever done this...No...Why...because I have put myself first and persecution last....Is that correct? No...If I fear the blind because of their vast numbers then I would be better off in vocal blindness than in unspoken sight...MY motive?...to open the gates of persecution against me and to follow Christ...HIM FIRST and Me LAST....following in His blood stained footsteps with compassion and love...

Do I do this? No. Do I even want to do this? No....Do I want to WANT to do this? YES...
I think I am about, maybe perhaps half way there!....or maybe I have just begun!....

Arcturus :)






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Layla

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 08:36:31 PM »

Hi Arcturus

While I find the scriptures are as Willie wrote "layered" I also believe the scriptures have reference to both the corporate body and the individual.  For example the fulfillment of Passover for the corporate body was Jesus laying down His life and making atonement for sin.  The fulfillment of Passover on the individual level is when through faith in the blood of Christ Jesus.  Just as the corporate fullfillment for the Feast of Pentecost occurred through the 120 in the upper room, the individual fullfillment is when we receive the Holy Spirit.  What I had shared definitely is applicable to the corporate body, but you have shown an application for the individual, and beautifully put I might add.

Peace,
Layla
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2006, 03:54:31 PM »

Hi Layla

This scripture came up for me after reading your post...Eph 4:16 (AMPL) For because of HIM the whole body, the church, in all its various parts, closely joined and firmly knit together by the joints and ligaments with which it is supplied, when each part, with power adapted to its need, is working properly in all its functions, grows to full maturity, building itself up in love.

Then God directed me to this scripture...1 Cor 1:10 But I urge and entreat you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in perfect harmony and full agreement in what you say, and that there be no dissensions or factions or divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your common understanding and in your opinions and judgements...

I feel that this is what has been happening through your posts!..... :)because of HIM! :)

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2006, 04:30:25 PM »

Great thread Arcturus and everyone who has contributed, we can see this first/last theme throughout scripture.

1st  Man = Adam
2nd Man = Christ

Esau  1st
Jacob 2nd

Physical Israel 1st
Spirtual Israel 2nd

OT Prophets
NT Saints (Elect)

Also consider the implications of what our Lord is saying here;


Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

But this wonderful and beautiful verse (among many) shows that He is in all His creation ultimately;

Isa 48:12  Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
   



 
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Kat

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2006, 05:48:09 PM »

I have been reading this thread and it really has stirred my interest in this saying,
'first will be last, and the last first.'

Matt. 19:30 would more appropriately be at the beginning of chapter 20,
there is a parable that follows that explains what this is talking about.

Mat 19:30  But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
Mat 20:1  "For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
The word 'for' shows that this chapter should have been connected with the preceding. This parable is an explanation of the reward of the kingdom.  So Christ immediately starts to give His spirit to His chosen.
v.2  After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, He sent them into his vineyard.
v.3  And going out about the third hour He saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
This was, therefore about nine o’clock in the morning, still early in the day.
v.4  and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.'
They did not ask Him to hire them, He chose them. And these people were idle, which means (Strong's- inactive, that is, unemployed; (by implication) lazy, useless: - barren, idle, slow). This sounds like 1Cor. 1:26-29, weak, base, and foolish things of the world.
v.5  So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, He did the same.
So Christ repeatedly chooses and gives His spirit, all day long.  This 'day' would be the time from His ascension until His return
v.6  And about the eleventh hour He went out and found others standing. And He said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?'
v.7  They said to Him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'
About five o’clock in the afternoon, or when there was but one working hour left in the day, so Christ gives His spirit to those choosen, right up until His return.
v.8  And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to His foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.'
So all the faithful labourers in the Lord's vineyard are given their reward, starting with the last that were chosen and going to the first, so that the ones working the longest were paid last.
v.9  And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.
v.10  Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius.
v.11  And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house,
v.12  saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
v.13  But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
v.14  Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you.
v.15  Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?'
Christ here shows that He will not show partiality, all of the elect will receive the same reward. 
Col 3:23  "Whatever you do, work at it wholeheartedly as though you were doing it for the Lord and not merely for people. v.24  You know that it is from the Lord that you will receive the inheritance as a reward. It is the Lord Christ whom you are serving!"  
Isa 40:10  "Behold, the Lord Jehovah will come with strength, and His arm [Strong's - the arm (as stretched out), figuratively force - arm + help, mighty, power, shoulder, strength] rules for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him, and His wage before Him." 
Rom 6:22  And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during; v.23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

v.16  So the last will be first, and the first last." Same as verse 8.

I have wondered about this scripture before, but had never studied it.
So along with what everyone else has said about this, it has really helped my understanding.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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WillieH

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 09:57:34 PM »

WillieH: Hi Gena... peace...  ;D

Hi Willie, glad to see you over here!!

gena

Thanks for the nice welcome!

Peace...  :)

In  JESUS  ...willieH  :D
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Joey Porter

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2006, 11:04:22 PM »

If I may offer, I think a lot of it does have to do with our own spirit and humility, as had been pointed out in a few earlier posts.  Here is a very interesting but short parable:

Luke 17
7"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "


Many may disagree with me, but I don't think we should be trying to earn rewards as we live our lives.  For example, when Jesus talked about giving and fasting without letting anyone know, He said we would have a reward. But I think there is more to that.  I don't think we are supposed to feel as though we "deserve" any reward, even if we do all sorts of great works, even in secret.  We are to be brought to such a state of humility that our "reward" is the joy and satisfaction of knowing we're living the right way and doing the right deeds.  Our reward should be the joy of helping people in need, without expecting anything further.

I remember there was a time when I would keep sort of a running tab in my head - I'd send a money order to some ministry or do some other type of good deed, (without telling anyone, mind you) and I'd think to myself "well there's a another reward I'm storing up for myself."  But I don't believe that's the way we're to be, as the above parable illustrates.  I think to be "last" means to be so humble that we live as Christ-like as possible without feeling like we're deserving of anything other than the satisfaction of living that way. 
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longhorn

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 11:17:24 PM »

I think we can do a Never Ending number of good things without letting our rt hand know what our left is doing.  If you keep score, Oh well.  But I for one will not just sit by the side of the road and beg for crumbs.  There are many goods things done everyday by people that go unoticed, and thats just the way they want it.

Longhorn
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2006, 06:15:46 AM »

Hi Longhorn

I have been searching my concordance for a scripture reference where I read something to the effect that.... those who do good and their good works are in secret will be revealed and rewarded  and those who do bad and are not seen to do bad  (in other words they get away with it and are not recognised ) will be exposed in the last days.....something like that anyway!.... ;D

I'd enjoy it if anyone can come up with the relevant scriptures. I know there are forum members here who could help! Hope to see that scripture I have been trying to re-locate present itself again!

Arcturus :)

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Chris R

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Re: The first shall be last?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2006, 09:32:34 AM »

Hi Longhorn

I have been searching my concordance for a scripture reference where I read something to the effect that.... those who do good and their good works are in secret will be revealed and rewarded  and those who do bad and are not seen to do bad  (in other words they get away with it and are not recognised ) will be exposed in the last days.....something like that anyway!.... ;D

I'd enjoy it if anyone can come up with the relevant scriptures. I know there are forum members here who could help! Hope to see that scripture I have been trying to re-locate present itself again!

Arcturus :)



 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.   Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.    But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:   That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."  [Matt 6:1-4]

Hope this is of some help

Chris R

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