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those who have never heard
YellowStone:
MG, :)
Please don't think I was trying to put you on the spot. Actually, I never knew you have had time with words; truth to tell, you write fine. :)
We can do nothing on our own, all is from God. I had so much doctrine shoved down my throat, its a wonder I can still breathe. I do not know how many times I was told not to ask questions like that; or who are you to question God. The words I was being taught just didn't mesh.
But on the same hand, the teachers were all good and I believe sincere in their belief. Even to this day I will respect anyone who stands firm in what they believe even if I do not agree with them. The world of political correctness has created many who have no idea how to stand for even what is right.
MG, I do not know you other than your words; however, words speak a lot of the person and although you say that you were sure you were saved; I think that's just part of the job. :)
I firmly believe that Christ through Ray has started something that will sweep the world. The Scripture you posted is so perfect, we owe everything to God for without him we are less than nothing.
Thanks for a wonderful reply,
Much love to you,
Darren
hillsbororiver:
Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
His Peace and Wisdom to all,
Joe
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on October 20, 2006, 10:03:33 PM ---Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
His Peace and Wisdom to all,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Hi Joe,
The thing I wonder about such scriptures is whether they pertain to the overtly carnal preachers or if this includes all preachers and teachers who are in error.
For example, many of the big name televangelists are easily spotted as phonies and wolves, even by many other mainstream Christian teachers. I'm talking about people like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc. Their greed and corruption is easy to see, even for many other teachers and sheep who are in error.
But there are also many men who seem very humble and genuine, albeit wrong about their teachings. Men like Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah - of the times I've listened to them (which used to be often) they would often preach about being humble and Christ like, and making God the priority in our lives.
Many times I've heard Charles Stanley talk about humbling ourselves before God, relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures, treating everyone the way we want to be treated, and obeying God in all we do. He seems to have a genuine love and concern for the congregation and for the lost. And sometimes I just wonder "How can he still be so in the dark? He seems to have a humble spirit and a great love for God. Why hasn't he been shown the error of what he teaches?"
The only conclusion I can think of is that he must have some part of him deep down inside that is somehow at enmity with God, or some type of pride that he may not even be aware of, and it's keeping him blinded and hardened to the truth. I believe he has built a multi million dollar facility called "The Charles Stanley Institute" which offers bible study courses and so forth. Perhaps his self named facility is a sign that he desires pre-eminence. I don't know. I don't want to judge the man too harshly but there must be some reason why he is still teaching false doctrines.
It's difficult to analyze how people can seem so humble and sincere and yet be so far in error.
YellowStone:
Joe (our wonderful Mod) wrote:
Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
Oh boy Joe, you're going to get sick of me. :-\
My question is simple. Did any of the above teach, listen or walk from the truth of their own free will?
Eph 1:5
* Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11
* In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Act 2:23
* Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1Pe 1:2
* Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Seems pretty clear to me that God knows everything way in advance. We have all shared stories of how God dragged us from our previous lives, were we any less sinners than those you mention. This is so very important, because either they were doing their own will or the will of God. Jesus had not yet died and arisen. Paul writes of the that time.
Tts 3:3-7
* 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
* 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
* 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
* 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
* 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Here's another question :)
Who are the heirs to eternal life? Was it something they did, did they earn it? Thankfully Paul let's us in on the answer. Thnks MG for this Scripture. ")
Ephesians 2:8
* For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Once again, not by ourselves but by the grace of God.
Finally (and please don't tell me this is a question I shouldn't ask) :)
Just how righteous is our God if he punishes one person harder than another, when in truth they were doing His will 100%. Will those who died prior to Christ be judged differently?
Just some loose ends that need to be tied.
Thank you Joe, :)
Darren
ned:
--- Quote from: Joey Porter on October 20, 2006, 10:38:56 PM ---
The only conclusion I can think of is that he must have some part of him deep down inside that is somehow at enmity with God, or some type of pride that he may not even be aware of, and it's keeping him blinded and hardened to the truth. I believe he has built a multi million dollar facility called "The Charles Stanley Institute" which offers bible study courses and so forth. Perhaps his self named facility is a sign that he desires pre-eminence. I don't know. I don't want to judge the man too harshly but there must be some reason why he is still teaching false doctrines.
It's difficult to analyze how people can seem so humble and sincere and yet be so far in error.
--- End quote ---
I too, know many personally (from my old church), and others like Charles Stanley who seem so humble and sincere and are yet so far in error, I wondered the same thing Joey.
I agree with Darren's response and would like to add:
Rom 8:7-8
(KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Deep down inside we all cannot please God, only if we have been chosen to by Him can we begin to please Him. Our natural state is ENMITY against Him. We all have pride deep inside that can only be revealed and taken away (growing process) when Jesus says so. Charles Stanley and the many like him are where God has them. They can only learn and grow if He draws them to Him.
Peace to you,
Marie
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