> General Discussions
those who have never heard
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello everyone
Rev 20:12,13 I also saw the dead, grat and small, they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged, sentenced by what they had done, their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades surrendered the dead in them and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done according to their MOTIVES aims and works....
Motives....a good point to ponder ;D
Arcturus :)
MG:
Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
YellowStone:
MG what a wonderful pertaining peice of Scripture. :)
What do you think it has to say regarding, the discussion thus far. I ask this so that anyone new here may not get lost because they have not the understanding of Pauls words.
Thanks,
God Bless you,
Darren
Joey Porter:
--- Quote from: YellowStone on October 20, 2006, 12:51:39 PM ---Joey wrote:
I also want to add something to my previous post. I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
I'm not picking on you Joey :) but I am commenting on a couple of points for my benefit.
1. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error.
This kind of like taking one to the forest, but they could not see it for the trees. Whose fault is that? They didn't know what they were looking for. Just because one finds the truth, but does not see it as such; is this because of their willful ignorance or because of the will of God? Can anyone ignore God, if he does not want to be? :)
2. I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.
This is an interesting point. Should they be judged harsher than you or I, just because God did not give them eyes to see? Once again, only God knows the motives of the heart.
3. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
Once again, this comes back to whether "either" are living outside the will of God. If they are, then we are in control of our own destiny and God takes what he gets; or each are judged according to their hearts.
Lastly, do you think they are preaching "hell-fire" against the will of God? If not, then surely this a mute point, for why would anyone be judged harsher for living according to the light provided?
Food for thought. Joe, I would love to hear your take on this, because if I am wrong, I need to know. :)
Love and Godspeed to you all,
Darren
--- End quote ---
I understand what you're saying in both of your posts. There is no doubt that God's will is being carried out within everyone's life and deeds. However, I'm not sure how far we can take the idea of a person not being held accountable because of God's sovereignty. For example, aside from missionaries - what about murderes, atheists, fornicators, etc. Of course their deeds are all a part of God's sovereign operation, but it does not mean that they won't be judged harshly.
Another point to remember - I believe it's James who points out that those who assume the role of teachers will be judged more severely than those who are not. I would tend to believe that missionaries have assumed the role of teacher just by the nature of what they do.
Please don't get the idea that I'm trying to shut people out of the kingdom. I know I'm having a hard enough time living in a manner in which I would be fit for the kingdom. I guess it will all come down to whether or not I've been chosen. But again, I think it would be difficult for anyone who is steadfastly preaching a false gospel to enter the kingdom.
MG:
I have a hard time with words Darren, but I'll try.
Ray says that THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST
It is God that brought me to the great falling away. He tore down my spiritual house and I was shown that my house was built on sand. I had many parts of my house still built on sand even when I found bibletruths.com. Everything I've been shown and every work that has been done in me is completely from God and I can take no credit for any of it. I like Paul am the chief of sinners. I had a zeal for God, but it was without knowledge. I learned that there is no good thing in me and for me to live is Christ only. My old man will never be good. Only God is good.
Before this happened I was teaching lies to children in Sunday School. I was trampling the completed work of Christ under my feet by begging God to save my family from hell. I was arrogant thinking I had truth that they didn't have. I was sure I was saved and they weren't. I did not have a teacher. God revealed his truth through his word. I fell on my face in repentance. I am the chief of sinners. Faith is a gift from God and I can't boast about anything that I've received through that gift of faith. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Only God can call us out. Only God can choose us and reveal the truth to us. I am no different than any missionary or any sinner. I am here because God called me out. I didn't choose Him. He chose me. It is a gift.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
--- Quote ---ALL FALL AWAY
I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.
It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?
Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a ‘GREAT FALL.’ When (notice I did not say, ‘IF’)…when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn’t mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!
And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.
THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST
I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God’s called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.
The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for
"Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).
We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this
"…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."
He was wounded to death, but the wound was healed and he again lived. He also has a mark, and a name, and a number. What is this mysterious number that has baffled scholars, theologians, and saints for centuries? I will not give you the complete answer to this at this time, but will only show you that it is the number of mankind—humanity.
THE NUMBER 666
"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).
Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.
The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong’s Concordant.
Furthermore, it is not the number of "a" anything. It is just the number of human or of mankind! Even the Revised Standard Version translators saw this and therefore, states, "It’s number is six hundred sixty-six." The number of the wild beast is not the number of "a" man, but rather the number of "man" or "mankind."
With this in mind let’s read II Thes. 2:3:
"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
--- End quote ---
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