those who have never heard

[Extol]

JOHN 15 (CLNT)

22 "If I came not and speak to them, they had no sin. Yet now they have no pretense concerning their sin.
23 He who is hating Me is hating My Father also.
24 If I do not the works among them which no other one does, they had no sin. Yet now they have seen also, and they have hated Me as well as My Father,
25 but it is that the word written in their law may be fulfilled, that they hate Me gratuitously.

I wonder, does this disprove what Dr. Kennedy and others say about God not being responsible for Africans who have never heard?

[orion77]

I would say an absolutely, heck yes!!!

Good point made.

God bless,

Gary

[YellowStone]

Extol, here is another example:

Rom 1:18

• For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 

• Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 

• For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Pretty much clinches it don't you think

I bet Dr. Kennedy ignores this scripture too!

Love to you,

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

 

Arcturus

[SandyFla]

It makes me wonder why they would send missionaries to those who've never heard. I mean ... c'mon ... they're safe if they don't know, but share the Gospel with them and they risk rejecting it and going to hell. If I believed that, I'd never tell anyone.

And why would Jesus want us to share the Gospel with people if, by sharing, they might be condemned to burn in hell forever? 

Makes no sense. But then, neither does much of what the church teaches!

Sandy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi SandyFla

Good point!

They thinkand  are indoctrinated to accept and act on believing that everyone is going to hell anyway and only they can stop it. They think that all those who don't know they bare going to hell are opportunities for them get brownie points if they do Gods job which they think God can't do anyway....

Shame!

Arcturus

[gmik]

It makes me wonder why they would send missionaries to those who've never heard. I mean ... c'mon ... they're safe if they don't know, but share the Gospel with them and they risk rejecting it and going to hell. If I believed that, I'd never tell anyone.

And why would Jesus want us to share the Gospel with people if, by sharing, they might be condemned to burn in hell forever? 

Makes no sense. But then, neither does much of what the church teaches!

Sandy

I read somewhere that the "great commission" was really Jesus telling the disciples to witness to the Jews- not a mandate for the general populace.  What does anyone know about that???

Sandy, I always thought that too, about missionaries--No, don't tell anyone!!

gena

[orion77]

Yes, that is a good point, Sandy.  Never seen it like that before.   

Extol, here is a verse that totally throws their freewill theory out the window.

(2Pe 2:10 ASV)  but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise dominion. Daring, self-willed, they tremble not to rail at dignities:

That is a dangerous thing to believe that our will overpowers the will of the One who made us.  Yet, they push that so hard.  What is the whole purpose to the plan of God, if it comes down to our own will.  I thank God that our destiny is not dependent upon the will of mankind, whew, we all would be in a heap of trouble.   

God bless,

Gary

[SandyFla]

Yes, that is a good point, Sandy.  Never seen it like that before.   

Right. Don't tell them and they automatically go to heaven; tell them and they could go to hell. (Against Scripture, they believe that everyone is lost and on their way to hell.)

So why send missionaries? Their answer: Because Jesus said so.

But doesn't Jesus know that by telling them, He is allowing many of them to be condemned to the eternal fires of hell?

How stupid and mixed up do they think He is? 

Sandy

[Deborah-Leigh]

The plan is that they experience how stupid and mixed up they are....just like I was  once!...Shame..they are in for a painful revelation.....Ouch..

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Guys and Gals,

There has been some very interesting discourse in this thread. But I think perhaps, by whose will is being followed is forgotten.

Case in point, only God knows the true motive in ones heart (he put it there or allowed Satan) To this point, I have known some wonderful missionaries during my travels and although I might not agree with 100% of their doctrine, I cannot fault many at all in the way they extended their lives and put up with all kinds of hardship trying to preach the Word of God as they understand it, all the while caring for God's children who were often malnourished, un educated and often sickly.

Do you really think that it is Christ in us condemning such as these (looking at no-one!!) 

Or would he show some compassion? Surely there is no comparison between missionaries and the likes of the TV evangelists.

I was once lost too. I believed (hoped for, prayed for) that I was doing the right thing. Why do you think that there are so many churches? It's because each has a different version of the truth.

Who knows what God has planned for all his children, least of all me.   Anyone of these could log onto Bible-Truths tomorrow and we would all welcome them as brothers and sisters and rejoice there being here.

If I over stepped the mark, then please let me know.

Comments always welcome because I am here to learn the truth.

Love,

Darren

[orion77]

Hello Darren,

You are correct and have not overstepped the mark.  I believe you hit the nail on the head, my brother.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.  Looking to where I was, and to where God now has me, knowing full well its not from any merit on my part.  We all are here, because of Him, and the future will be because of Him.

Thanks for the wake up call, brother.

God bless,

Gary

[YellowStone]

Thanks Gary

May the love of God continue to shine through you.

Darren

[snorky]

Want an example of the "commission"? My husband and I have this friend, a Vietnam vet who saw and did "unspeakable things" (he has said, but never discusses what these things are) and as a result is an alcoholic. My husband would tell him and this other friend about the gospels and the Bible in general, most of the time getting blown off about it. Well, after years of this, I went up to see him, mainly to see if he was still alive or did he drink himself to death, and Praise God, he was not only alive but sober, eating food, his house was clean, no booze smell, in fairy good health, and he told me he believed in Christ and read the Bible and was cleaning up his act. All under God's power (not my husband's) But he said he wasn't going to church (he's a loner, hates crowds, and five is a crowd to him!) and i said great, don't go! Read the Bible and stay out of church! But if God doesn't use us to tell others about His word (knowing only He will call them to accept Him), aren't we like the folks to whom much is given and much is expected or like the one who is taken away from even the little he has? (I don't remember the verses but these are in the gospels). Or does this apply to something else? In any case in no way did either my husband or I think "we" could "save' him. Unfortunately, he doesn't own a computer and never used the Internet...he'd definintely be interested in Bible Truths.org--snorky

[YellowStone]

What a wonderful story Snorky

For sure God was in control, but don't you think that he used you and your husband as well?

Seems to me that your (you and your husband) actions may have spoken louder than words. I think we try our best to make God complicated I went to church for years and became more confused each time.

This is the second time I have used this Scripture in this thread (I think it is my favourite)

Rom 1:20

• For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I believe this scripture is so often overlooked. The first time I visited Bible-Truth's I knew that I had found what I was looking for. How could I know if not for the above verse. Why do peoples of every land believe in "something" supernatural?

If you think your friend is ready, print some of Rays papers and give them to him to read. I would not pressure him, but be there should he have questions. God's ways are not our ways and who could even guess what he has planned.

Thanks so much for sharing this story. I'm sure you and your husband made a difference.

Love,

Darren

[Joey Porter]

Guys and Gals,

There has been some very interesting discourse in this thread. But I think perhaps, by whose will is being followed is forgotten.

Case in point, only God knows the true motive in ones heart (he put it there or allowed Satan) To this point, I have known some wonderful missionaries during my travels and although I might not agree with 100% of their doctrine, I cannot fault many at all in the way they extended their lives and put up with all kinds of hardship trying to preach the Word of God as they understand it, all the while caring for God's children who were often malnourished, un educated and often sickly.

Do you really think that it is Christ in us condemning such as these (looking at no-one!!) 

Or would he show some compassion? Surely there is no comparison between missionaries and the likes of the TV evangelists.

That's an issue that really confuses me, as well.  I think about these missionaries and I know that there is no way I could ever (at least at this time) give up my entire way of living to live in a third world country and  teach others. What a great work!  Part of me couldn't imagine people like that being judged harshly.  But then...

I also think about when Jesus said woe to them who travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when converted, they become twice as much a son of "hell" as they themselves.  I also think about those who will do many wonderful works in His name only to be told "I never knew you." 

It's also important to remember that there are missionaries in all religions - mormonism, JW, Islam, you name it.  These are all people who are making sacrifices to share their faith with others. Surely all of these missionaries will not receive praise on judgment day.

I really believe that if someone is preaching untruths as though they are truths, they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom.  I don't know how harsh the judgment will be, but I can't see Him praising and commending someone who, even though the motive may not have been selfish, taught a blasphemous gospel to masses of people. 

I could be wrong, though.

[Joey Porter]

I also want to add something to my previous post.  I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person.  For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.  But I don't believe either will have a reward.

[hillsbororiver]

Joey,

I have to agree with the points you made here, what knowledge were these missionaries exposed to, what did they reject, if anything? Did they make a concious decision to put away any knowledge or possibility that Universal Salvation is real because "hell" is such an effective way of getting people to "the cross?"

What was their real (heartfelt) motivation? Was it to rack up huge numbers of "converts" like a shooting guard in a basketball game? Was it (missionary work) a requirement of their church to remain in good standing?

Or were they acting on the limited understanding the Lord has given them but still having a strong love for Him and humanity?

In most cases only the Lord and the missionary will know the answer to these questions.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[YellowStone]

Joey wrote:

I really believe that if someone is preaching untruths as though they are truths, they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom.  I don't know how harsh the judgment will be, but I can't see Him praising and commending someone who, even though the motive may not have been selfish, taught a blasphemous gospel to masses of people. 


This is of course the million$ question. How does one know if the truth's they hold so dear are indeed true or false. As hard as I might and as much as I prayed for wisdom and understanding, I never knew, until God openned my eyes.

How can one hear the truth and turn away from it, if not by God. Is there anyone here strong enough to walk away from God, if he does not will it? This is important, becasue God is in control and everything is happening according to his will, so who are we to say that "they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom." because, they are doing and saying all that God has allowed them to see.

We should not look down on them, rather we should weep for them. How sad is it that those who genuinely believe that they have the truth, do not.

But this is not the end of it, what of: (third use)

Rom 1:20

• 
  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Not a single person alive is without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead. Though they are being preached to, it does not mean nor imply that all believe in their hearts that the words are true. Can anyone say that every preacher / missionary believes every piece of doctrine without question?

Not one of us is any greater than any other by our own work. We are who we are just like everyone else, by the grace of God.

Truth is at war with untruth, ie Christ is at war with the ruler of this world, Satan. Christ will know well the motives of a persons heart. He will know that any untruth will be of Satan. Is there anyone who can resist Satan if not by Christ or God? Of course not!  

Christ will judge everyone according to his own criteria. Does it not worry you, that Christ may look at "us" with disdain, because we didn't even try to correct the missionaries or help teach the masses the truth? Are we not worse then them?

Relax Joey, All is going to God's plan and all will be revealed in time.

Thanks for a very thought provoking post.

Darren

[YellowStone]

Joey wrote:

I also want to add something to my previous post.  I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person.  For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.  But I don't believe either will have a reward.

I'm not picking on you Joey but I am commenting on a couple of points for my benefit.

1. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error.

This kind of like taking one to the forest, but they could not see it for the trees. Whose fault is that? They didn't know what they were looking for. Just because one finds the truth, but does not see it as such; is this because of their willful ignorance or because of the will of God? Can anyone ignore God, if he does not want to be?

2.  I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.

This is an interesting point. Should they be judged harsher than you or I, just because God did not give them eyes to see? Once again, only God knows the motives of the heart.

3. But I don't believe either will have a reward.

Once again, this comes back to whether "either" are living outside the will of God. If they are, then we are in control of our own destiny and God takes what he gets; or each are judged according to their hearts.

Lastly, do you think they are preaching "hell-fire" against the will of God? If not, then surely this a mute point, for why would anyone be judged harsher for living according to the light provided?

Food for thought. Joe, I would love to hear your take on this, because if I am wrong, I need to know.

Love and Godspeed to you all,

Darren