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23 minutes in hell

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eggi:
Hello all, this is my first post here.  :o

It is indeed sad to hear people like Bill Wise. He is as deceived as you can get. After listening to http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWise_AllTracks.mp3 I was feeling so sad for him and others who believe in this blasphemy. His imagination must really have run wild, his descriptions are absolutely insane! This vision he had is now an idol of his heart, it seems that everything he reads in the Bible is referring to what he claims he saw in hell. All of it is damnable heresy.

In the beginning he tries to make his story believable by saying that Paul was in the third heaven (out of the body) and so it is quite possible that HE had a vision of hell (out of the body). Wise claims he was in hell "OUT OF HIS BODY". I've been thinking about these verses that Wise referres to:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell;, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:, God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven. (2Co 12:2)

What is Paul referring to here? "(Whether IN the body, I cannot tell;, or whether OUT of the body, I cannot tell:, God knoweth;)"
Since I'm not sure about what this implies, I decided to look at some of the "in the body" occurences in the Bible:

I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. (Dan 7:15)

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(2Co 4:10)

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2Co 5:6)

From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. (Gal 6:17)

Is Paul talking about an "out of the body" experience like Bill Wise is suggesting?
I think not. Paul says he DOESN'T KNOW. He couldn't tell. God knows. It seems that this expression "in the body" has something to do with the intimacy of the vision. Paul had such a wonderful vision that he did not even understand just how strong a vision he had had; He didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body. Daniel was grieved in his spirit in the MIDST of his body, and he was troubled by these visions. I'm beginning to see a connection with "in the body" and the strength or extent of visions. If we are bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus (which would be "dying daily") the life also of Jesus will be made manifest "in our body".

Whilst we are AT HOME "in the body" we are absent from the Lord; we don't see the fulness, and we know in part (1Co 13:9). And finally, when Paul is bearing in his body the marks of the Lord Jesus (as opposed to the mark of the beast), he is spiritually closer to Jesus than he has ever been (let no man trouble me). All of this is "in the body", but it seems to me that there are different levels of being "in the body" as we develop and grow spiritually. Am I way off base here? Any views on this?

Praying for understanding,
Eirik

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Eirik

I Just know you are led here and you are going to find so many teasures...."revealed unto us by His Spirit...." 1 Cor 2:10

It sounds to me that you are one of the Called Out ones...called out of Mystery Babylon...the Harlot.....You already see the deception and that is great that you identify it.

At first I had some difficulty with seeing SO much deception until I was delivered to understand and appreciate that at least I could SEE it.....it really got me upset and so much so that I shunned the TV news and could not watch world events without becoming troubled.  I could not release myself out of this experience and many years of anxiety had to be felt in all the darkness I was grieving over..before it dawned on me that the darkness is part of Gods plan. 

The more I read Rays Lake of Fire Series the more sence I am lead to understand and the teaching and insights  nurtures a sound mind and not one given over to fear... I am so  glad that I see what I see now and that I can rest in the revelation that all others will also be delivered from evil in God's due time....and God's due Will

I enjoyed reading your post...Welcome :D

Arcturus :)

eggi:
Thank you so much!

I'm also very grateful for what little I see and understand of God's Word. I too was in Bill Wise's situation, I had nightmares about Judgement day, being condemned to eternal hell and all the rest of it. Still, I never had such a detailed and horrible experience/dream/vision as that of Bill Wise. Seeing how terrible deception he is passing through made me feel very sorry for him. There really is no end to the horrors of hell that he is now preaching: "Demons ripped off all my skin... they had the strength of 1000 men... there is not one drop of water in hell..." and so on. Thanks to God I'm not fearful when hearing such descriptions anymore, the biggest fear is that I could once again fall for such deception, because I know that I'm not responsible for my faith - I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. (Mar 9:24)

orion77:
Hello Eirik,

That is a very good question.  Often wondered about that myself and haven't a clue what it means, except that as Paul said, 'only God knows'.  Also, as he stated there are things that happen between God and man that are not lawful for one to speak about.

(2Co 12:3 LITV)  And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows--

(2Co 12:4 LITV)  that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words which a man is not permitted to speak.


I think when one has a 'third heaven' experience, it is not so much that they don't want to talk about it, but there is literally no words or expression that can properly convey the experience.  Beyond the thoughts and imagination of mans limited capabilities.  Even though it has happened...how to express it to another human is impossible.  The love is comparable to the size of the universe, our mind can not comprehend it.

Just a thought, maybe that is what Paul is talking about.

God bless,

Gary

Kat:
Hi Eirik,

This post is of interest to me, as I have been considering this scripture lately.
I have read some of the commentaries remarks about this,
and have come to some of my own conclusions.

2Co 12:1  I must boast, although it does not do any good. I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2Co 12:2  I know a man in Christ. Fourteen years ago-whether in his body or outside of his body, I do not know, but God knows-that man was snatched away to the third heaven.

I believe Paul is talking about himself, as later in verses 6 and 7 he is referring to himself.
I believe these must be visions, as Paul had a vision or trance before, in Acts 22:17.

2Co 12:3  I know that this man-whether in his body or outside of his body, I do not know, but God knows-

He has mentioned twice that he didn't know what happened to him.
Repetition being made to affirm the magnitude of what happened to him,
and this experience was of greater significance to him,
as he was not himself, and he knew not where he was.

2Co 12:4  was snatched away to Paradise and heard things that cannot be expressed in words, things that no human being has a right even to mention.

Is this Paradise, the experience of Christ giving him a vision of heaven.
This whole thing was not easy to be understood and taken in, and the manner of it even unknown to him. 
These experiences Paul had, surely attributed greatly to his understanding of the truth,
as he was the most influential apostle and authored 14 books of the Bible.

2Co 12:5  I will boast about this man, but as for myself I will boast only about my weaknesses.
2Co 12:6  However, if I did want to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be telling the truth. But I am not going to do it in order to keep anyone from thinking more of me than what he sees and hears about me.

This kind of knowledge and revelations could cause spiritual pride.
Therefore this was prevented in him, as he says,
there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to torment me.

2Co 12:7  To keep me from becoming conceited because of the exceptional nature of these revelations, a thorn was given to me and placed in my body. It was Satan's messenger to keep on tormenting me so that I would not become conceited.

Well this is my own understanding,
but maybe others can bring more understanding of this scripture.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


 

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