bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: elect  (Read 3304 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

stego

  • Guest
elect
« on: October 30, 2006, 02:16:50 AM »

Hi all,
    I was just wondering about some of the criteria for being considered one of the elect.  Is it possible to be one of the elect if one has never heard of Jesus and has never opened a bible?  If not, is it possible to be one of the elect if one has not read the entire bible?  Part of the motivation of my questions is that I have known a couple people in my life that are very good people, very loving, very understanding i would say of the main points of God's word (especially love your neighbor as yourself), and yet, they have barely even read God's word!  Isn't it true that none of us has the full mind of God at the time of our deaths anyways, even the elect?  Thoughts?

Sean
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 08:54:13 AM »

Good morning Sean,

The way I see it is if we cannot be 100% sure we ourselves are among the elect how can we judge whether others will be or not.

There is no doubt that the Lord can and does choose whomever He pleases, we can never be absolutely sure of another person's walk with Him or how He leads them to Himself, it is a One on one experience for any and all of His own. The most comforting thought is that all will be Sons and Daughters of God eventually!

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe   
Logged

TRUTHSEEKER

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 12:34:32 PM »

Hi all,
    I was just wondering about some of the criteria for being considered one of the elect.  Is it possible to be one of the elect if one has never heard of Jesus and has never opened a bible?  If not, is it possible to be one of the elect if one has not read the entire bible?  Part of the motivation of my questions is that I have known a couple people in my life that are very good people, very loving, very understanding i would say of the main points of God's word (especially love your neighbor as yourself), and yet, they have barely even read God's word!  Isn't it true that none of us has the full mind of God at the time of our deaths anyways, even the elect?  Thoughts?

Sean

Your concern was brought to the Lord when two of his diciples wanted to be "one at his left and ther other at his right" when Jesus established his kingdom.  Jesus made it abundantly clear that such a position was not even his to give but for those who the Father prepared it for.  I don't believe we will know in this lifetime if anyone is truly an elect of God.  Knowing Jesus is probably a prerequisite.  I haven't seen anywhere in the bible where it was dependent on knowing Jesus though. Reading the bible in its entirety doesn't qualify someone to be an elect either.  Only the Father knows and He will reveal in due time who He wills to be in such a position.  That's my take on it.
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 01:47:48 PM »

Hi Truthseeker,

Here are some verses that would strongly suggest that a knowledge and a reverence of and for Jesus is a prerequisite for being saved, in this life or the next.

I would not limit the Lord in saving whomever He willed but if He did it outside any biblical knowledge He would still reveal Himself to the sinner being saved, without His Spirit we are dying flesh, not a living spirit.


Joh 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
 
Act 4:11  This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
 
Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Phi 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth;

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 


 
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 01:53:14 PM »

Hi Sean,

Your question,
Quote
Is it possible to be one of the elect if one has never heard of Jesus and has never opened a bible?  If not, is it possible to be one of the elect if one has not read the entire bible?  

I agree with Joe that we can not be 100% sure, if we are one of the elect,
nor can we know for be sure, who else He leading to Himself.

But the scripture does gives us a lot of information, about who it is God does choose.

You say,
Quote
Part of the motivation of my questions is that I have known a couple people in my life that are very good people, very loving, very understanding i would say of the main points of God's word (especially love your neighbor as yourself), and yet, they have barely even read God's word!

Good works are great, but is that all that would be required to be among the elect?

Gal 2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law, for no human being will be justified by the works of the law.

Luk 8:21  And answering, He said to them, My mother and My brothers are these: the ones hearing the Word of God, and doing it.

Joh 8:31  Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.

2Ti 2:15  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

The elect must be in the Word of God, to do it and continue in it, and handle it rightly.
But to understand, the elect must have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:16  Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

Joh 14:23  Jesus replied: If anyone loves me, they will obey me. Then my Father will love them, and we will come to them and live in them.

Because the elect can not do or understand any truth on their own,
Christ must be the head of the body.

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Joh 15:5  I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

To be one of the elect you must suffer for rightousness sake.

Mat 5:10  "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Col 1:24  Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;

Mat 10:22  and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

So the elect must be persecuted, but he who is faithful and endures to the end,
will be saved and be in the first resurrection.

Mat 10:22  and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Rev 17:14  They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

There are many requirments to be one of the elect,
and I would think a person would know, if there life is being lead in that direction.
Having the Holy Spirit indwelling is another thing that I would think a person would be aware of.
But you certainly can not know for sure, until you come up in the first resurrection.
This is the way it looks to me, in the scripture.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Logged

TRUTHSEEKER

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 02:35:17 PM »

Hi Truthseeker,

Here are some verses that would strongly suggest that a knowledge and a reverence of and for Jesus is a prerequisite for being saved, in this life or the next.

I would not limit the Lord in saving whomever He willed but if He did it outside any biblical knowledge He would still reveal Himself to the sinner being saved, without His Spirit we are dying flesh, not a living spirit.


Joh 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
 
Act 4:11  This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
 
Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Phi 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth;

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 


 

I agree that a knowledge and a reverence of and for Jesus is a prerequisite for being saved, in this life or the next.  But I was referring to the "Elect".  To be counted as one of the elect, chosen by God, before the creation of the earth is a different matter. Believing in Jesus doesn't automatically make one an elect of God.  God has chosen those who will be a part of this elite group of people before even saving them. Their position is as sure as our salvation.  Being an elect is a special calling only reserved for a few.  I also agree that God would still reveal Himself to the sinner being saved without biblical knowledge.  It truly is God's spirit that brings men and women to Christ.  Be blessed.
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 03:09:54 PM »

Believing in Jesus doesn't automatically make one an elect of God.  God has chosen those who will be a part of this elite group of people before even saving them. Their position is as sure as our salvation.  Being an elect is a special calling only reserved for a few. 


Hello Truthseeker,

I could not agree more.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Logged

gmik

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 03:41:34 PM »

I also thought that you had to come out of Babylon, come out from AMONG them.  Is that just the elect or the called.  That would mean large ethnic groups would not be judging & ruling w/ Jesus since many millions over the centuries haven't even heard of Jesus.

Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 05:26:09 PM »


Hi Gena,

You are right that large groups are not judged now, and will not be in the first resurrection.
The called all come out of Christiandom,
so all others will be in the second resurrection.

This is an excerpt from LoF #8.
This will help your understanding of the called and the chosen.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html  ----------------------------------------

THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).

So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?

Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."

One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:

"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).

Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.

There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.

All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!

When Jesus says that,

"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),

He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!

We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.

ARE YOU "CALLED AND CHOSEN" OR JUST "CALLED?"

Let me first state that there is an order in the process of being called to Sonship. First you are called, and then you are chosen from among the called. And we have already learned that the "chosen" are also the "few." Quite frankly, not unlike a casting call. Many are called to come to the casting rehearsal, but only a relative few will be chosen for the actual performance. Which are you? I will not be your personal judge, however, as we progress in this series, you will be confronted with dozens of Scriptures by which you can JUDGE YOURSELF by the aid of God’s Spirit.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Logged

stego

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 01:57:14 AM »

Thanks you guys for the good replies.   Joe, i agree with you so much here:

Quote
There is no doubt that the Lord can and does choose whomever He pleases, we can never be absolutely sure of another person's walk with Him or how He leads them to Himself, it is a One on one experience for any and all of His own.

Amen!  lol, thanks.

Sean
Logged

hughbee40

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 05:30:50 AM »

Howdy all
  I gave a testimony in the "your story" section and received many wonderful replies.  I don't think I have ever found such a community in my entire walk that has had something relevent to say in each and every response. I thank you all.   I believe that L. Ray says that the chosen will come from the called.  I believe that the called are the called and the chosen are the chosen.  While I feel that we all are here by the wonderful revelation that God has given L. Ray, we are also invited to allow the Spirit to work in us individually.  While most christians believe that from among themselves the "elect" will rise from their ranks as good followers of the commandments, etc., I believe that the elect shall be the simple people who have allowed the Holy Spirit of God to reach them in a way that they have learned to give up their ways of deciding their own lives and allowed Him to lead every step.  That means never feeling guilty for a failure, sin or mistake.  God created us exactly as He wanted us to be. With all weakness and infirmity that everone suffers from.  When we judge ourselves for the mistakes that we make, we condemn ourselves as still being slaves to the law.  If we can overcome the hurdle of unworthiness then we are 99 and 44/100% on our way to "elect" status.  When Christ cleansed the leper, he was no longer considered a leper, yet as we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, most still consider ourselves as sinners.  Yes, we are all sinners.  But if we have truly accepted his provision for us, sin has no effect upon us.  When Christ said "I have not come to put away the law, but to fulfill it", he was referring to Levitical law, specifically ch. 25 beginning roughly around verses 50+ regarding the laws of slavery.  Most christians like to use that scripture to reaffirm God's intent for us to adhere to the ten commandments, among others.  Christ told us to live by HIS commandments, simply to love God with all of your heart and to love others as He had loved them.  The New Testament commandments of Christ are NOT the Old Testament commandments of God (The Father)  If one tries to live their lives based on the ten commandments, they will always fall short.  That is why Jesus told us the expansion of the law of adultury regarding the sin of the eye.  We are being invited to put away the imperfect law of the flesh and embrace the new perfect law of the spirit.  Christ as a perfect manifestation of God Himself in the flesh was able to fulfill the imperfect law (of the flesh only) and therefore become a "near kinsman" required to free us from the fleshly sentance of death that Levitical law required.  Our (New) commandments are to love God and one another.  Yet as L. Ray has helped us to learn, it isn't about blatant forgiveness for everyone elses misgivings.  There is a time for courageous chastisement to those who preach a false doctrine and mislead others. We are a truly small community and I belive that all of us are becoming the foundation of God's elect.  I have so much more I need to share with all of you but time presently restricts my ability to do so.  Please offer back any affirmation or opposition to my words here today and I will continue respond as I am able to do so.

Yours in Christ
Hughbee40
Logged

orion77

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 07:39:53 AM »

Amen to that Hughbee40,

Good analogy of the leper, so true.  I think this is one of the hardest hurdles for us to overcome, and that is self condemnation by and through the law of moses.  That is the beauty of faith, things not seen, but hoped for.  Living in that faith being fully forgiven, not later, but now!


(Rom 4:16 LITV)  On account of this, it is of faith, that it be according to grace, for the promise to be certain to all the seed, not to that of the Law only, but also to that of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all,

(Rom 4:17 LITV)  according as it has been written, "I have appointed you a father of many nations;" before God, whom he believed, the One making the dead live, and calling the things that are not as if they were. Gen. 17:5


God bless,

Gary
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 08:31:41 AM »

Hello Hughbee,

Excellent post!

Just as the healing of the leper made the leper's flesh whole it did not heal his spirit, in that same way keeping the law would improve one's life in the here and now, indeed it's principles are the basis for the laws in "civilized" society (no matter if secular society denies it), without them we would have chaos (well, even more chaos).   

The New Covenant made manifest by the death and resurrection of our Lord is what (through His Spirit) gives spiritual life, the Old Covenant could produce an improved life in the here and now but did not give real, spiritual life, immortality.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   

Logged

brothertoall

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 09:31:40 AM »

Hughbee,

 What a wonderful post. And for me it is the Father through Christ that is setting me free everyday.it is a slow process but it is being done and I am thankful for that. It is nice that he has lead me to others like you all that are going through that same process.

bobby
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: elect
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 10:29:43 AM »

Hi hughbee40,

You made a lot of really good points in your post.

I agree that the elect are a people that the Holy Spirit of God is leading their every step,
that sin no longer has controll over us, goes hand in hand with this.
Indeed the Spirit is a consuming force in our lives.

Quote
Christ told us to live by HIS commandments, simply to love God with all of your heart and to love others as He had loved them.

We are able to live by His commandments, because He lives in us,
that is the only way you can keep the law of the Spirit.

I believe one of the purposes of the elect,
is to expose the blasphemies of the churches, as Ray is doing.

I'm glad that you are here, and will be sharing more.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.065 seconds with 24 queries.