Hebrews 12

[hillsbororiver]

Over the past few days I noticed verses from this Chapter of Hebrews quoted by quite a few of us in different threads, I thought maybe we were being led to read the whole thing and if not it certainly won't do any harm. 


    Hebrews 12 (Amplified Bible)
   

    1THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us,
    2Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.(A)

    3Just think of Him Who endured from sinners such grievous opposition and bitter hostility against Himself [reckon up and consider it all in comparison with your trials], so that you may not grow weary or exhausted, losing heart and relaxing and fainting in your minds.

    4You have not yet struggled and fought agonizingly against sin, nor have you yet resisted and withstood to the point of pouring out your [own] blood.

    5And have you [completely] forgotten the divine word of appeal and encouragement in which you are reasoned with and addressed as sons? My son, do not think lightly or scorn to submit to the correction and discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage and give up and faint when you are reproved or corrected by Him;

    6For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes.

    7You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline?

    8Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].(B)

    9Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?

    10For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.

    11For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God].

    12So then, brace up and reinvigorate and set right your slackened and weakened and drooping hands and strengthen your feeble and palsied and tottering knees,(C)

    13And cut through and make firm and plain and smooth, straight paths for your feet [yes, make them safe and upright and happy paths that go in the right direction], so that the lame and halting [limbs] may not be put out of joint, but rather may be cured.

    14Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.

    15Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God's grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it--

    16That no one may become guilty of sexual vice, or become a profane (godless and sacrilegious) person as Esau did, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.(D)

    17For you understand that later on, when he wanted [to regain title to] his inheritance of the blessing, he was rejected (disqualified and set aside), for he could find no opportunity to repair by repentance [what he had done, no chance to recall the choice he had made], although he sought for it carefully with [bitter] tears.(E)

    18For you have not come [as did the Israelites in the wilderness] to a [material] mountain that can be touched, [a mountain] that is ablaze with fire, and to gloom and darkness and a raging storm,

    19And to the blast of a trumpet and a voice whose words make the listeners beg that nothing more be said to them.(F)

    20For they could not bear the command that was given: If even a wild animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned to death.(G)

    21In fact, so awful and terrifying was the [phenomenal] sight that Moses said, I am terrified (aghast and trembling with fear).(H)

    22But rather, you have come to Mount Zion, even to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless multitudes of angels in festal gathering,

    23And to the church (assembly) of the Firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to the God Who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect,

    24And to Jesus, the Mediator (Go-between, Agent) of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].(I)

    25So see to it that you do not reject Him or refuse to listen to and heed Him Who is speaking [to you now]. For if they [the Israelites] did not escape when they refused to listen and heed Him Who warned and divinely instructed them [here] on earth [revealing with heavenly warnings His will], how much less shall we escape if we reject and turn our backs on Him Who cautions and admonishes [us] from heaven?

    26Then [at Mount Sinai] His voice shook the earth, but now He has given a promise: Yet once more I will shake and make tremble not only the earth but also the [starry] heavens.(J)

    27Now this expression, Yet once more, indicates the final removal and transformation of all [that can be] shaken--that is, of that which has been created--in order that what cannot be shaken may remain and continue.(K)

    28Let us therefore, receiving a kingdom that is firm and stable and cannot be shaken, offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship, with modesty and pious care and godly fear and awe;

    29For our God [is indeed] a consuming fire.


This is an inspirational message, especially in times of tribulation and stress.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[orion77]

Hello Joe,

The book of Hebrews is all good, but I like these verses you quoted in the 12th chapter:


(Heb 12:11 LITV)  And all discipline for the present indeed does not seem to be joyous, but grievous; but afterward it gives back peaceable fruit of righteousness to the ones having been exercised by it.

(Heb 12:12 LITV)  Because of this, "straighten the hands" hanging alongside, "and the enfeebled knees;"

(Heb 12:13 LITV)  "and make straight tracks for your feet," that the lame not be turned aside, but rather healed. Isa. 35:3; Prov. 4:26


We definetely all need that admonition from time to time.


(Isa 35:3 LITV)  Make the weak hands strong, and firm up the stumbling knees.

(Isa 35:4 LITV)  Say to those of a hasty heart, Be strong! Do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance; with the full dealing of God, He will come and save you.

(Isa 35:5 LITV)  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf opened.

(Isa 35:6 LITV)  Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb shall sing. For waters shall break out in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.

(Isa 35:7 LITV)  And the mirage shall become a pool, and the thirsty land shall become springs of waters, in the home of jackals, in its lair, and a place for the reed and rush.

(Isa 35:8 LITV)  And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called, The Way of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it. And it is for them, the one going in the way; yea, fools shall not go astray.

(Isa 35:9 LITV)  No lion shall be there; and no violent beast shall go up on it; it shall not be found there. But redeemed ones shall walk there.

(Isa 35:10 LITV)  And the ransomed of Jehovah shall return and enter Zion, with singing and everlasting joy on their head; gladness and joy shall reach them; and sorrow and sighing shall flee.


Amen, His word is so good and true.  Here is the reason and purpose for the chastening from the Lord.  Wow, what can I say!!!


(Pro 4:20 LITV)  My son, pay attention to my words; stretch your ear to what I say;

(Pro 4:21 LITV)  let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the center of your heart;

(Pro 4:22 LITV)  for they are life to those who find them, and healing to all his flesh.

(Pro 4:23 LITV)  Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life.

(Pro 4:24 LITV)  Turn away from you the crooked mouth, and put perverse lips far from you.

(Pro 4:25 LITV)  Let your eyes look straight ahead, and let your eyelids look straight before you.

(Pro 4:26 LITV)  Study the track of your feet, then all your ways will be established.

(Pro 4:27 LITV)  Do not turn to the right hand or to the left; turn your foot aside from evil.


Thank you Joe for starting this thread, just what the dr. ordered.

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

Gary,

You are very welcome, some of the questions and posts of late inspired me to start this thread.

The additional scripture you posted fit perfectly. I love it when our fellowship produces this type of edification.

Thank you Brother,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe and Gary,

This is a good read.
Every time I read through scripture, it sink in a little deeper.
Staying in the Word, is paramount to growing in Christ.
Thanks for the post.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

Hi.  I just reread this entire thread.  Then I read Heb 12 in the Concordant and the Youngs and then the Greek interlinear.  Then back to the Amplified.  The easiest for me to understand was the Amplified.  Does anyone know if the Amplified has the same trouble as KJV?

Just talking with someone the other day about why God would hate Esau.  How unfair.  I had remembered that Ray had said the translation was really "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have i loved less".  That appeased my friend who thought God couldn't hate.

Next I am going to do a word study on scourging & disciplining. Still have trouble with all that.

Great thread all of you.

love,
gena

[hillsbororiver]

Gena,

I have also gotten in the habit of using multiple translations, I know Ray does as well.

For me it is like looking at a large object from different vantage points, you get a better overall view and perception of what it is in front of you.

The Amplified Bible is another translation that is translated from the original Hebrew and Greek directly to English, with no taint of Latin.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


 

[Andy_MI]

The Amplified translation of these verses made me chuckle 

Gal 1:5 AMP
(5)  To Him [be ascribed all] the glory through all the ages of the ages and the eternities of the eternities! Amen (so be it).

Phi 4:20 AMP
(20)  To our God and Father be glory forever and ever (through the endless eternities of the eternities). Amen (so be it).

1Th 4:17 AMP
(17)  Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

And also 8 verses in Revelation. 

I never seen how ridiculous that sounded until I had my eyes opened to the word aion.

Peace,

Andy

[hillsbororiver]

Andy,

Good point, it appears some of the Latinized definitions did seep into this version even though the translators claim it is a direct translation from the Hebrew and Greek;

Amplified Bible
Version » Amplified Bible
Publisher The Lockman Foundation 
Testaments OT/NT


Version Information

The Amplified Bible was the first Bible project of The Lockman Foundation. It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method. The Amplified Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1987 printing.


The Lockman Foundation is a nonprofit, interdenominational ministry dedicated to the translation, publication, and distribution of the New American Standard Bible, Amplified Bible, La Biblia de las Américas, Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos, and other Biblical resources.

Apparently some of the doctrinal beliefs of the translators did make it into their translations, that is why it is a good thing to use multiple versions when clarity is required.

[Andy_MI]

Hi Joe,

The first verse of Heb 12 is full of treasure!

Heb 12:1 CLV
(1)  Surely, in consequence, then, we also, having so vast a cloud of witnesses encompassing us, putting off every impediment and the popular sin, may be racing with endurance the contest lying before us,

Could the cloud of witnesses be the whole world watching us to see if our profession of faith is real or not. Looking at the example of the life we live and not the words we speak?

Also I see the importance of putting off every impediment and the "popular sin."

What is popular sin today? Is it drunkness, fornication, drug use, pornography, or all of them?  We need to be reminded to flee these things that war against the soul.

And lastly, we need to race with endurance. Like Paul says:

Phi 3:7-14 Rotherham
(7)  But, whatever things, unto me, were gain, the same, have I accounted, for the Christ's sake, loss;
(  Yea, doubtless! and I account all things to be, loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for the sake of whom, the loss, of all things, have I suffered, and do account them refuse, in order that, Christ, I may win,
(9)  And be found in him—not having a righteousness of my own, that which is by law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is, of God, upon my faith,—
(10)  To get to know him, and the power of his resurrection and fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death,—
(11) If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection, which is from among the dead:
(12)  Not that I have, already, received, or have, already, reached perfection, but I am pressing on—if I may even lay hold of that for which I have also been laid hold of by Christ Jesus:—
(13)  Brethren! I, as to myself, reckon that I have, not yet, laid hold; one thing, however,—the things behind, forgetting, and, unto the things before, eagerly reaching out,
(14)  With the goal in view, I press on for the prize of the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Then may we be able to say along with Paul:

2Ti 4:7-8 AMP
(7)  I have fought the good (worthy, honorable, and noble) fight, I have finished the race, I have kept (firmly held) the faith.
(  [As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor's] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day--and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return).

Peace,

Andy

[Andy_MI]

I'm still finding much treasure in this 12th chapter of Hebrews!

Check out verse 2.

Heb 12:2 CLV
(2)  looking off to the Inaugurator and Perfecter of faith, Jesus, Who, for the joy lying before Him, endures a cross, despising the shame, besides is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

I also like how the Rotherham's translates it.

Heb 12:2 Rotherham
(2)  Looking away unto our faith's Princely-leader and perfecter, Jesus,—who, in consideration of the joy lying before him, endured a cross, shame, despising! And, on the right hand of the throne of God, hath taken his seat.

The Princely-leader or Inaugurator and Perfecter of faith!

Our faith is all a gift from Him and nothing of ourselves. Even the ability to believe in Christ is a gift!

Eph 2:8-9 LITV
( 8  For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
(9)  not of works, that not anyone should boast;

Gal 2:20 CLV
(20)  With Christ have I been crucified, yet I am living; no longer I, but living in me is Christ. Now that which I am now living in flesh, I am living in faith that is of the Son of God, Who loves me, and gives Himself up for me."

"who, in consideration of the joy lying before him, endured a cross, shame, despising!"

What unfathomable joy He had and still does knowing the end result of His work!

A perfect world!

Isa 11:4-10 CLV
(4)  Yet He will judge with righteousness the poor, and correct with equity for the humble of the land. And He will smite the earth with the club of His mouth, and with the spirit of His lips will He put to death the wicked."
(5)  And it comes that righteousness is the belt of His waist, and faithfulness the band of His loins."
(6)  Then the wolf will sojourn with the he-lamb, and the leopard will recline with the kid. And the calf and the sheltered lion will graze together, and a small lad will lead among them."
(7)  And the young cow and the bear will graze together, and together they will recline their young. And the lion, as the beeve, will eat crushed straw."
(8  And the sucking will revel over the hole of a cobra, and on the light-shaft of a yellow viper the weanling his hand obtrudes."
(9)  They will not do evil, nor will they ruin, in all My holy mountain, for full is the earth of the knowledge of Yahweh. As water for the sea floor is a covering."
(10)  And there comes, in that day, the Root of Jesse, Who will stand for a Banner of the peoples; of Him will the nations inquire, and His rest will come to be glorious."

All the nations of the earth will be blessed because He endured the shame of the cross!

Gen 22:18 CLV
(18)  and blessed, in your seed, shall be all the nations of the earth, inasmuch as you hearken to My voice.

And He is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God!

Our Friend, Elder Brother, and Advocate is seated at the right hand of God!

1Jo 2:1-2 LITV
(1)  My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(2)  And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world.

And we are seated with Him!

Eph 2:6 LITV
(6)  and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

Thanks Joe for starting this thread. It's a blessing!

Peace,

Andy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Good coaching!

Since all these old-timers are now looking down from their stadium seats, shouting our names like we're their heroes, let's kick off the stuff that's tripping us up, let's untie the mess that weighs us down and let's run! Let's channel our stamina reserves and run the race we've been entered for. Let's focus our minds on Jesus, who made us, who coached us; He's there at the finishing line. He went through the hell of execution; He stomached total humiliation so he could take His place in the top office of heaven. While you're running, lock your mind on to Him and the pain barriers He pushed through, the blockades, put up by messed-up men that he had to dive through. Lock on to Him and fatigue won't touch you, you'll have that deep inner belief, and you'll keep going. HOW BAD'S IT BEEN? HAVE YOU DRAWN BLOOD YET?
Treat these hassles like a good workout. God's just being a Dad. Every son knows how Dad's try and knock off our rough edges. If He doesn't bother (and they all do), then maybe you're not His! We've all had human dads who've stood up to us and we've respected them for it later. So times that by a hundred to show how we've got to take in what our spiritual Father says. Our dads did their best to knock us into shape and God coaches us so we might stand out like he's outstanding. I'm not saying you'll enjoy it! It'll probably be a rough ride. But it'll build your fitness, and later you'll see the good things that you couldn't have done without it. You'll sense the satisfaction it brings. We're signing up for God's's  Permanent New World package. So let's show some gratitude.Let's work for Him out of respect for who He is. Like Moses said, "Our God is a raging forest fire."

FINAL TIPS ON LIFESTYLE - LOVE, HOSPITALITY, PRISON VISITS, DECENT MARRIAGES, SIMPLE LIVING, RESPECT FOR LEADERS, STRAIGHT COACHING, ASKING GOD TO SUPPORT OTHERS.

God's generosity rub off on all you guys. (Rob Lacey. The Word on the Street)

The only part I do not go along with in the above translation is "these old timers looking down from their stadium seats"...We all know they are dead, don't we ...that their story is alive for our admonition

Arcturus.....

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Andy MI

Your question: Could the cloud of witnesses be the whole world watching us....

This question is thoughtful and important Andy. The answer lies in Chapter 11 where Paul names the witnesses, Cain and Abel vs 4, Enoch vs 5,  Noah vs 7, Abraham vs 8 and so on and so on....and this is not to say that your insight is not valid....I am sure the world does watch and hate us

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

Lacey's translation says Christ is in His (CHRIST'S) place, in the top office (AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER) of heaven.

He said "We're signing up for God's permanent New World package" That is mans perception not actually how it is! See Ray's letter 2 James Kennedy for clarification on the difference between THE RELATIVE and THE ABSOLUTE.

You incorrectly write. "It's just not something you would want to go by at all." No Kat, wrong again!

Arcturus

[Andy_MI]

Hi Andy MI

Your question: Could the cloud of witnesses be the whole world watching us....

This question is thoughtful and important Andy. The answer lies in Chapter 11 where Paul names the witnesses, Cain and Abel vs 4, Enoch vs 5,  Noah vs 7, Abraham vs 8 and so on and so on....and this is not to say that your insight is not valid....I am sure the world does watch and hate us

Arcturus

Hi Arcturus,

Thank you for showing me that truth. I was looking at that form a totally different direction. I had to meditate on it for a while and then I could see it. Thanks again. May God bless you!

Peace,

Andy

[joyful1]

Hi guys--
just for the fun of it...I emailed the Lockman Foundation about "eternities of the eternities" a while back...I just got their reply tonight...my question & their reply follows:

To: nasb@lockman.org
Subject: QUESTION?
Hello--
I've copied below, verses from a post of a friend in a forum that I visit.  He claims that this is your AMP version of these verses?  I have a question about them...
ARE THESE PARTICULAR VERSES translated directly from the Greek or did you use the Latin in any way shape or form to translate/transliterate/or interpret these verses?  We are particularly interested in the words: eternities of the eternities?  Thank you!

Sincerely,
Joyce

Gal 1:5 AMP
(5)  To Him [be ascribed all] the glory through all the ages of the ages and the eternities of the eternities! Amen (so be it).

Phi 4:20 AMP
(20)  To our God and Father be glory forever and ever (through the endless eternities of the eternities). Amen (so be it).

1Th 4:17 AMP
(17)  Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

Their reply:

Thank you for your interest in the Amplified Bible.

In response to your inquiry:
"and the eternities of the eternities!" is an amplification and not part of the original Greek. In the Amplified Bible an italic "and" and parentheses means the phrase or words is an amplification. The Greek work in the New American Standard Bible is translated "forevermore". The translators of the Amplified Bible used many works for reference but we do not know specifically if they used the Latin. If they did there would likely be a footnote regarding it.

Hope this is helpful.

In His Service,
Carole Holdinski
The Lockman Foundation

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Joyce,

That is very interesting, I love the way you went right to the source and I was a little surprised at their answer since it is actually fairly easy to research the root of the word "eternal." I believe that perhaps they did not purposely taint their translation but allowed doctrinal beliefs cloud their judgement.

Meanings/definitions of words can and do change over the years we have witnessed this in English throughout our lifetimes, especially those of us over 40 and sometimes the original meanings get lost in the times.

Anyway, this is from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary;


  Main Entry: 1eter·nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING <eternal damnation> b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? -- Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)>
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL <an eternal flame> b : seemingly endless <eternal delays>
3 archaic : INFERNAL <some eternal villain...devised this slander -- Shakespeare>
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities>
- eter·nal·ize  /-n&-"lIz/ transitive verb
- eter·nal·ly  /-n&l-E/ adverb
- eter·nal·ness noun





No reference to Greek there.

Great job Sister!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe