> General Discussions
Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Layla
What an encouraging, edification!….. Now I see the light!……
…. as you say “only by the grace of God that you have not caused me to sin. “ By implication you say I am the tempter and your cause to sin! Give me a break. I take no responsibility for your sins. I did not cause them and will not stand in the way of them.
Your post to me is sinful…..it is my first boarder line hate mail. Only boarder line mind you because as you say, by the grace of God you were prevented.
You say that I said I do not wish to debate. Where? Where did I say that?…Come let us reason together.
The cud you hope others have chewed is not worth chewing on because it is not food. It is heresy the content of which is a very pure form and very high grade. Enough to addict anyone and carry them off into seemingly wise sounding instruction which is in fact only a man made fiction. Rightly did Paul write…”in latter times some will turn away from the faith, giving attention to deluding and seducing spirits and doctrines that demons teach.” 1 Tim 4 : 1
You did not get the message the first time or the second time. Hope this third time you will get it.
You haven’t a clue that the scripture does not licence, authorise or ordain women as mans authority or to teach men. Give me one scripture that says woman can teach, lead and instruct men. You can’t, because there isn’t one.
Does this mean that Deborah was not asked by Barak to go with him or he would not go into battle and subsequent victory? No. Does this not mean that a woman threw a rock out of a window and onto the head of a man and he was shamed to death. No it doesn’t. Does this mean that it was a sin to nail a mans head to the ground and kill him by driving a tent peg through his temples? No it doesn’t.
All you are basing your opinions and grievances on is birthed out of your addiction to man made heresy. The post you brought into the Forum dressed up in sheep’s clothing written by Doug, is a crock. It violates the scripture in multiple ways. You call it food to chew as cud. I call it poison to spit out that deserves the tent peg, the crushing rock and certainly not to be lead into victory. Who is your King Layla?…Doug or Christ?
Layla, can you see the difference between what is RELATIVE and what is ABSOLUTE. Look at the scriptures on Deborah a prophetess and Barak. The entire Catholic Church is likewise deceived into putting Mary the Mother of God onto Gods throne and reducing Christ into the same picture as the infant. Christ…the all mighty Son of the One and only true and living God! Barak made his obedience conditional upon Deborah going with him. By alignment with the woman he lost the victory that was at first said would be given into his own hands by God. Judges 4 By making his obedience to the command of the Lord that Deborah was sent to remind him of, by making his obedience lean on Deborah as provisional and dependent upon her presence, this showed God a real back hand. Was not God enough? Was a woman to be the means by which Barak was to receive his confidence? Barak as much said it was! If you come I will go. If you won’t then I will disobey God and ignore your message reminder of Gods command to me.
The result, God took the victory that He had set aside for Barak ( FOR OUR ADMONITION!) and gave it into the hands of the woman.
Brothers and Sons of God be warned…. That is what happens when a man will not lead. This is what happens when a man will lead only provisionally, conditionally and subsequently only upon the woman presence of a woman. This is the MESSAGE….the ORACLE….don’t follow me. Check the data. Do your homework. Do your research. This is not happy hour!
Ref LOF Adam and Eve. ….The woman you gave me to be with…..and Adam ate the apple! …..And God said…because you listened to your Wife…..
The message here….Men you are the head. The Sovereignty of Christ is your crown not your wife, girlfriend, sister or daughter. Stand alone men. Don’t compromise. The message is clear. Love your wives yes but be the head, and receive your crowns….The King of glory is your Sovereign God. This is not a distinction given to women directly but through you men indirectly. You as men are the head of the woman. As God the Father is to Christ the Son, as Christ the Son is to man and His Church and as man is to be to his wife. Anything less is a two headed beast. This is not God’s call or Will. If you men disobey you will loose your reward. The lentil soup on offer here smells good. Don’t trust it. It will steal your victory and by default a woman could lead you into defeat again through seduction, via half truths and false teaching.
What I bring here is not a teaching it is a Message it is a warning. It is not a drive for a following. Let those who have ears hear and if you do hear and if you do see you need not follow me. You will know from whom I am sent and you will hear His call to each of you male and female to follow His voice alone.
I seek no following. I look for no agreements. I only say what I see.
Women hear this you who are called to be sisters and Daughters of God and true to the faith. Here is the message. A defeated man is a hollow victory for a true woman. A compromised man is a disgrace to womanhood. A deceived man is an anathema to the crown of God.
My brothers continue in your call to your faith as the Sons of God. The roaring lion that is seeking to devour and his wolves are the brigand teachings that come in to scatter the true sheep and to take hostage the little ones. Our Shepherd is Christ and His Spirit is true. Not one will be snatched away…NO not one!….We are written into the palms of His hands and we obey and bow to the word of God. Praise be to His SON our King of Glory who’s Spirit is the leadership through His appointed Sons and messengers.
How awesome the power of God and of truth. Just a few scriptures to make the bandits high tail out of here! What cowards are they that bridle and saddle some of our members to bring in toxic waste as a Terrorist who would seduce a passenger to take a radio on board an air craft that will blow up in mid flight.
I for one will not fly with such a passenger who is seduced into a love affair with a terrorist. As much as I care for the passenger destined to the same inheritance with Christ, I will not pretend that the cargo carried by such, is not lethal. It is lethal. Drop the radio and come away Layla. The radio you wish to keep on board this flight to Christ is not broadcasting the correct teachings. Throw it out and stay on board.
It was for Adam to choose to follow his wife into death. We women must not lead our men into another error. If we see a man not taking up his place in the body of Christ we should not be willing to take his lost prize by default. This is our real test of faith and love. It is a test that does not call us out to teach or preach. It is a test that fell to Abigail who sought to protect her husband from his foolishness by giving her submission to her King. Her action saved her husband from the King David’s plan to crush him for his arrogance. I am not saying that some men are not arrogant and that some men are not fools. Some men, some theologians and some preachers clearly fit into either one or all, and some of these categories.
My message to women is do not try to usurp the man. Pray to the King. If you see a man or a doctrine of man, or your husband or brother or boy friend or fiancé teaching and preaching and believing in error and going down hill into his folly and foolishness, do not do as Jezebel, do as Abigail. Pray to our King and follow and submit accordingly. May our brothers and Sons of God pray for our victory in this our test of faith that is upon all women, sisters and Daughters of God.
And to those men or women who perhaps feel preached at or edified by a woman…God forgive me for speaking out …calling it as see it … unlike those women who were afraid to speak and were over ruled by Christ who sent Mary Magdalene because they were too afraid…
I am not afraid. I believe God has appointed a time and place for men. It is not the place appointed to women. Our place is to pass the test of faith in Christ, encourage our men through that faith and to submit to God in His Wisdom.
Men pray for us mere women as we falter and stumble in our pathetic attempts to equal you and cat fight one another for your position of Divine authority. Forgive us. Encourage us in our submission and do not lead us into equality!
My sisters….we are Daughters of God only as we give leave and yield to His Divine order. Our knees too are going to bend.
To this message I have been given leave and the privilege to so speak!
Layla, if after this you still do not get the message….then as per your first line of your post to me quote:
I will respond to this post of yours, but after that you may have the last word…..
If this be the last word….then rather Mercy, Grace and unmerited favour be to you the last word…
Arcturus.
Deborah-Leigh:
His beacon of light through this storm...
Thank you Kat
Arcturus :)
Layla:
--- Quote ---But so to not get too far off topic, since the topic is women and teaching... how might this (being in the flesh vs in the spirit) relate to what Paul said about husbands and wives (not simply men and women):
Paul very clearly said that he was talking about Christ and the church (not husbands and wives after the flesh), didn't he?
Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Paul was not addressing men and women after the flesh; if he was, then who is the single woman or the widowed woman "subject" to?
Paul was using the marriage relationship that was established by God in the beginning to show us THE SPIRITUAL TRUTH BEHIND IT. Adam (male) was formed FIRST, THEN Eve (female - from Adam) and then they were JOINED TOGETHER and made ONE FLESH.
CHRIST FIRST, THEN the CHURCH; the HEAD FIRST, THEN the BODY.
Those who are still "in the flesh", minding the things of the flesh may have only been able to hear what Paul was saying in terms of the FLESH (applying it to husbands and wives after the flesh), but aren't we supposed to be able to discern what the SPIRIT of the Word is? Christ said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
IF the SPIRIT of God dwells IN US and we are born "of the spirit"... then are we still "in the flesh"? (Paul says no.) Are we still "male and female" or are we ONE FLESH?
Is God a RESPECTOR OF PERSONS? Or is man?
Are we (even though male and female after the flesh) not joined together as ONE FLESH; ONE BODY with ONE HEAD through the SPIRIT?
So are we now to look at these verses after the flesh (husbands and wives)? rather than after the spirit (Christ and the church)? To say that we are "still in the flesh"?
I pray (God willing) I am NOT still in the flesh to mind the things of the flesh.
If the spirit of God dwells IN ME, then it is not "me" (whether I be male or female after the flesh) who speaks but it is the WORD OF GOD that is IN ME that speaks; it is the SON doing THE WILL OF THE FATHER who is SPEAKING (AND DOING).
Even MEN are the BRIDE (female) of Christ and WOMEN are still SONS (male) of God.
--- End quote ---
Thank you athisfeet for bringing forth what I was unable to.
Peace,
Layla
hillsbororiver:
To be perfectly honest I really do not know why this particular subject has become so critical, I mean how many women here plan on leading their own congregation? This seems to me to be one of those issues that really affects very few while fostering contention in the Body of Christ. Using the Forum as an example, do the women here feel they are being ignored? That their observations or questions are treated as second rate? Dear Sisters are you being demeaned or made to feel unimportant?
I would think that the God who created us knows us better than we know ourselves, does He make proclaimations just for sport? Can't anyone understand a couple of reasons just why He might have given us direction that our carnal minds, even our spiritual minds do not fully comprehend, is that where faith comes in? Are (the Body of Christ) we all really the same in every way, He makes no distinctions, really? 1 Corinthians 12 has a different take, here are a few verses;
1 Cor 12 (Amplified)
12For just as the body is a unity and yet has many parts, and all the parts, though many, form [only] one body, so it is with Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
13For by means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one limb or organ but of many.
15If the foot should say, Because I am not the hand, I do not belong to the body, would it be therefore not [a part] of the body?
16If the ear should say, Because I am not the eye, I do not belong to the body, would it be therefore not [a part] of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where [would be the sense of] hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where [would be the sense of] smell?
18But as it is, God has placed and arranged the limbs and organs in the body, each [particular one] of them, just as He wished and saw fit and with the best adaptation.
(read the whole Chapter)
It is a constant battle between our carnal nature and our spiritual nature, overcoming traditions or even politically correct doctrines that seem right but we must do interpretational somersaults to make them fit what is plainly written in scripture. So we are now all mature in spirit?
If we use this train of thought to its conclusion are men and woman who consider themselves "full in spirit" no longer in need of observing gender? Should there be contention about who is to lead the family? How does that work if the husband is not a believer? Does this mean same sex marriage is now approved by the Lord? Are we to believe that we are now in a realm which puts us on a par with our head (Christ)? Are we to believe that since there is neither male nor female (at this very time), that we are at this very moment in a spiritual realm which needs no hierarchy?
So now that we are "no longer in the flesh" we are able to dismiss scriptural admonishment?
1 Corinthians 14 (Amplified Bible)
34The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says
35But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church].
36What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?
37If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
38But if anyone disregards or does not recognize that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not].
There is an ongoing effort within many denominations to justify their rejection of Paul's statement that the things he writes are the commandments of the Lord, claims are made that since Christ is "the fullness of the Godhead bodily," and since we are "in Christ," that we, too, are "the fullness of the Spirit " and now we can go beyond scripture and into "the deeper things" of the spirit.' The "deeper things of the spirit" of course means that Paul's Words about women are now nothing but anachronisms which were only valid at the time of the early church.
It is this type of supposition that leads to denying that Paul's words are "the commandments of the Lord." Is it any different than saying we are in no need of Paul's admonision that "The words that I speak unto you are spirit." How does this jibe with "my words will never pass away." This train of thought denies that Christ is His Word and Is, Was, And Will Be true. This is the exact (manmade) logic that led to the ordination of a woman to be the head of the Episcopal church at the National Cathedral. Are we to follow Babylon's lead in matters such as this? Does anyone here really believe that we are in the fullness of His Spirit, we are complete Spiritual beings, incorruptable? Anyone who can make the claim that the following has culminated in any one of us please put your response to this verse and how you fulfill it.
Ephesians 4 (Amplified Bible)
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of [c]unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
The order was established very early and it is stated that this is how it should be until we return to dust, it will change at the resurrection, when we are incorruptable.
Genesis 3 (Amplified Bible)
(Was there a lesson in the Garden when Eve did not consult Adam in regard to eating the fruit, was there a lesson in Adam going along with Eve because his love for her was very strong, she satisfied his desires?)
16To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
17And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life.
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.
Isaiah 3 (Amplified Bible)
12As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy and swallow up) the course of your paths.
I could go on and on here but those who are convinced otherwise will not readily change their minds anyway no matter how long this goes on, it was not long ago when I too believed this to be just applicable to the early church. The reason I wrote this was not to change anyone (only He can) but to give some scriptural references to those who have yet to form an opinion who have been observing this thread without comment and would like some scriptures to search.
It is always a good principle not to attempt to void a clear and direct scripture with a more mystical or obscure one, it is better to try to unlock the more mystifying with the clear and direct Word.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
P.S. This will be my last post on this thread
brothertoall:
Very good Joe!
bobby
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