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Author Topic: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes  (Read 3114 times)

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hillsbororiver

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OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« on: November 15, 2006, 10:21:22 PM »

I was thinking about the sacrifices and burnt offerings written of throughout scripture and how they point to and are shadows of the Sacrifice of our Lord. For some reason I was struck by what our Lord, the Son of God the Father, full of glory, at His Father's side would be feeling or thinking as the unblemished animal was slain on the alter.

These sacrifices were offered in His honor and were a constant reminder of what He was going to experience at the culmination of His earthly ministry, not that He needs or needed to be reminded of anything but this ritual repeated over and over through the history of Israel had to intensify or make more profound what He would be facing.

All we really know is that it pleased Him to do the will of His Father, and that this was the path He was given to bring His Father Sons and Daughters and that He laid down His life voluntarily because of His love for God and His love for us.

I have no profound insights to offer here, I am just putting into words some thoughts that have been rambling through my head, if anyone has any comments I would love to hear them.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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orion77

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 01:37:54 AM »

Hello Joe,

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, yet it does speak concerning the importance of the sacrifice of Christ.

(Heb 5:14 LITV)  But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.

(Heb 6:1 LITV)  Because of this, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us be borne on to full growth, not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

(Heb 6:2 LITV)  of baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of dead ones, and of eternal judgment.

(Heb 6:3 LITV)  And this we will do, if indeed God permits.

(Heb 6:4 LITV)  For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit,

(Heb 6:5 LITV)  and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age,

(Heb 6:6 LITV)  and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.

But, this is not speaking about us all here, because we respect and honour the Father by being obedient to Christ.


(Joh 15:8 LITV)  In this My Father is glorified, that you should bear much fruit; and you will be disciples to Me.

(Joh 15:9 LITV)  As the Father loved Me, I also loved you; continue in My love.

(Joh 15:10 LITV)  If you keep My commandments you will continue in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and continue in His love.

(Joh 15:11 LITV)  I have spoken these things to you that My joy may abide in you, and your joy may be full.

(Joh 15:12 LITV)  This is My commandment, that you love one another as I loved you.

(Joh 15:13 LITV)  Greater love than this has no one, that anyone should lay down his soul for his friends.

(Joh 15:14 LITV)  You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

(Joh 15:15 LITV)  I no longer call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his lord does. But I called you friends, because all things which I heard from My Father I made known to you.

(Joh 15:16 LITV)  You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

(Joh 15:17 LITV)  These things I command you, that you love one another.


Not sure if that is in your line of thought, Joe, but nevertheless some good things here.

God bless,

Gary
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hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 10:00:10 AM »

Gary,

Those verses you posted are certainly a beautiful and comforting way to start my day, the promises contained are inspiring to meditate on.

What I was thinking about in my original post was more in line with the idea that perhaps the animal sacrifices were also instruction and lessons from the Father to the Son before His earthly ministry;


John 8:28 (Amplified)

So Jesus added, When you have lifted up the Son of Man [on the cross], you will realize (know, understand) that I am He [for Whom you look] and that I do nothing of Myself (of My own accord or on My own authority), but I say [exactly] what My Father has taught Me.

John 8:28 (King James Version)

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things

It is written that the Father instructed our Lord in all things, and also that His Father still holds knowledge that has yet to be revealed to Him, were the sacrifices also an example of how our Lord is, was and will be learning from God the Father ?


Mark 13:32 (Amplified)

But of that day or that hour not a [single] person knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13:32 (King James Version)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father



John 5:30 (Amplified)

I am able to do nothing from Myself [independently, of My own accord--but only as I am taught by God and as I get His orders]. Even as I hear, I judge [I decide as I am bidden to decide. As the voice comes to Me, so I give a decision], and My judgment is right (just, righteous), because I do not seek or consult My own will [I have no desire to do what is pleasing to Myself, My own aim, My own purpose] but only the will and pleasure of the Father Who sent Me.


John 5:30 (King James Version)
 
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

I found this fascinating to contemplate.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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orion77

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 10:36:29 AM »

Those are some good questions, Joe.

From reading your post, these thoughts came to mind.  It is intriguing to have the night come before the day,  the shadow before the Dawn, darkness (death) before light (Life).  And many other aspects and including the sacrifices performed under the law of Moses come before the True One. 

Also in the verses you quoted, where is freewill, and we choose thought that is so prevelant these days.  Clearly it is not in man to direct his ways, only in the hands of the Potter can the clay be molded. 

Interesting thoughts Joe, hopefully others can add more info here.

God bless,

Gary

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aktikt

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 01:44:14 PM »

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but it dawned on me while reading this verse, "Mark 13:32 (King James Version)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" 

How does this square with the following verse?

Jhn 16:15 (KJV) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you. 

Wouldn't the knowledge of that day and hour be included in the all things the Father has given Him?  I think I remember having this question years back but never got an answer to it.  Any suggestions would be helpful.

Josh
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Shakespeare-There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 02:24:20 PM »

Hi Josh,

Here is that same verse from the Amplified Version;


John 16:15 (Amplified Bible)
   
Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

As with an earthly father who gives all to his firstborn such as the family business, property, wealth and everything he owns, that does not mean that the heir has a complete knowledge of all the things being given to him. The heir will need guidance and mentoring on how best to utilize these things, who better than the father who built them?

Bill Gates could leave his empire with his firstborn, would that automatically bequeath the knowledge and wisdom that the senior Gates possessed? After the heir (Gates Junior) learns from his Father he is then in a position to mentor and teach his younger siblings.

My point in starting this topic was not to in any way deminish the absolute awe we should have for our Lord and Saviour, it just came to my mind that other than being pleased with the unblemished and heartfelt sacrifices made to Him by His people there very well could have been more to this than a shadow of what was going to be done for us, but the type presented in the sacrifices might have also been one of the things the Lord was being taught by the Father.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 




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brothertoall

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 03:10:29 PM »

Christ being the creator surely would have known from the beginning what would have to be done.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 46:9-11

 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.


bobby






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hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 04:55:02 PM »


John 8:28

(King James Version)

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things



Mark 13:32 (King James Version)

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

John 5:30 (King James Version)
 
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Bobby,

I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.


John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I see that the earthly mission of our Lord and Saviour, His experience in the flesh was beneficial (in the Father's eyes, therefore ultimately) to Christ as well as us, is it unimaginable that God the Father's plan is producing greater and greater results for ALL His creation, even His Beloved Son, His Firstfruit?

Does anyone believe that our Lord knows everything the Father knows?  Does anyone believe that Christ will never learn another thing from the Father? That once we become Sons and Daughters of God that it is over? Nothing more to learn or grow in?

This is one of the things that excites me tremendously, that we will continue in learning of God all through our immortal spiritual transformation.


His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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brothertoall

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 05:09:00 PM »


Joe you quoted:

I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.[/color]
Joe,

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

bobby


« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 05:13:00 PM by brothertoall »
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YellowStone

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 05:49:22 PM »

Joe, Bobby,

I am left wondering who is saying what here. Are you both on the same side or not? :)

Bobby, to your point.

Jhn 10:30
  • I and [my] Father are one.

I think this fits very well with your point:

Jhn 10:30 Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


For whom else can attest to being "one" with God and being in the same form (equal) with God?

Joe, your Scriptures are flawless :)

Mark 13:32 (King James Version)
  • But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father
John 5:30 (King James Version)
  • I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Surely thereis no conflict here :)

Col 1:15-19  (NIV)
  • 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (KJ - Creature)
  • 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
  • 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
  • 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
  • 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.

Several points worth of note here:

  1. He is the image of the invisible God
  2. The firstborn over all creation.
  3. He is before all things (Not meaning God himself)
  4. God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him.

Bobby, I see that there is no reason to assume that Christ knows the complete mind and will of his Father. As Joe posted, there are many references by Christ himself, disproving this.

Please understand that I am not even suggesting what Christ knew or not, but clearly he did not know everything.

Love to you both. :)

Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 05:54:56 PM »

Bobby,

I believe Ray has addressed this, I will search for it later when i have a bit more time. The term "God" is a title not the Father's name. Father and Son are both "God" but the Son is not the Father. Jesus Himself says the Father is greater than He (Christ). But the Father has given His Son all things and created all things through Him, but that does not say that the Son knows all the mysteries of the Father. You can see from the verses I quoted previously that there are things yet to be known to Christ, that "only the Father knows."  


John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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brothertoall

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 05:57:45 PM »

Yes Darren we are on the same side. I am not trying to argue here I realize that God reveals everything to the Son and it is no mystery to Christ. i am not saying that Christ is not being taught but quite the opposite. I do not believe that Christ is not being revealed things on God's time table.

I know Christ is equal with God for the word says so and Christ himself stated that all is from the Father.

Shoot now I am confused so maybe I better stop.

bobby
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 06:01:03 PM »

Hey Bobby

Perhaps this can help.....

For me, and as I recall, the word "God" describes the office and the powers belonging to the one who is IN the office. The office shows  the powers that are given to the person appointed to that position. The Father is in the office as God the Father. The Father has given this same office with the powers of its authority of God to His Son Jesus Christ. We too are being groomed to occupy the same office. When we  occupy the office that is the same as the one given by Father to Jesus that we will share with Christ, we will be junior in rank to  Jesus who will always be the first most senior Brother. First fruites of many bretheren.

There are many other scriptures that show that Jesus acknowledges His Father as His Father and as distinctly above Him in position as the One God. Where it is revealed that Jesus does not make the decisions is all through His discourses about His dependence on Father for everything. He shows also that He is not privy to some things....Matt 20 : 23  ....to sit at my right hand and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. We can debate whether or not Jesus knew who these were that the Father ordained and is preparing, but still it does show that this selection was not made by Jesus. Besides this, it is God the Father that does our selection and drags us to His Son......

I think this lines up with how we can expect to be in relationship to God the Father and His Son once we are revealed in His likeness. It is exciting and there are many aspects to consider from this thread........I am still reflecting on its message and call to us all to ponder and consider

Peace to you

Arcturus :)




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hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 07:02:16 PM »

Bobby, Darren and Arcturus,

I appreciate all of your comments here.

Arcturus and I have discussed this before, that the most edifying threads inspire us to seek His Wisdom motivating us to search the Word and pray for understanding.

My original point in starting this was that I was thinking about from the day one is created, actually any creature man or beast from the time it is born and becomes a living soul learns, gains knowledge, wisdom or understanding if not spiritually but definitely in the physical world. The creature is wiser in some regard today more so than yesterday, and will gain more wisdom tomorrow. Even if the only thing someone learned that day is not to walk barefoot in a backyard where the dog lives they are wiser for it.

So since this existence in the flesh is a shadow of heavenly things is it not reasonable that since we gain wisdom by the day that even spiritual beings (excluding the Father) learn more every day as well? Even if time is not measured as such in the heavenly sphere doesn't knowledge increase as more and more of the Father and Son are revealed. Now would this not hold true for the Son as well? There are many scriptural references to the Father knowing things the Son does not and of things that are yet to be revealed.

I believe that we will be learning wondrous, unimaginable things when the Father is All in all, when His creation becomes truly Sons and Daughters. That is an incredible thought to ponder. I believe (like Arcturus mentioned) that the Son will always have pre eminence as the Firstfruit and our Saviour, our bridge to the Father but I also believe that wondrous new things will also be revealed to Him and through Him every day of our new immortal lives. It is a real joy to discover and share new things with loved ones, I just can't imagine our Lord standing around saying "I knew that already" when the Father is teaching and mentoring His Sons and Daughters as a loving Father.

This is really where I was going with this, that all creation gains wisdom now (in some manner) and will forever (in a most glorious manner).

To me this is a very exciting thought, to really understand all the wonderful works of God, with new wonders being shown constantly, forever.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

       
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hillsbororiver

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 07:18:18 PM »


Joe you quoted:

I am not implying Christ did not know His mission until He witnessed the sacrifice(s) but that knowing your mission or goal is not quite the same as preparing, being trained and actually experiencing the actions necessary to achieve it. There are many scriptures that imply our Lord is still learning from the Father, that He is not equal even though He is One with Him, of the same mind, subject to and motivated to do only the will of the Father.[/color]
Joe,

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

bobby




Hello again Bobby,

I cut and pasted the article I mentioned, it is from the "Trinity" paper, http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Hey Darren, of course we (Bobby & I) are on the same side, the side of our Lord! 


Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).

These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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YellowStone

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2006, 07:35:40 PM »

Joe wrote:

Hey Darren, of course we (Bobby & I) are on the same side, the side of our Lord!
 

[/color]

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)


Love,
Darren
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eggi

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Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2006, 09:36:41 PM »

Just some thoughts on this:

It is sure that we as God's Creation grow in knowledge and wisdom. It is a process. Jesus Christ had many things to say unto the disciples, but they couldn't bear them then. This also applies to us, of course. We are now guided by the Spirit of truth, and we are shown things to come. This Spirit glorifies Christ, for it receives of what is Christ's, and shows it to us. The things of the Father is also Christ's, THEREFORE said He, that the Spirit should take of what was His, and show it to us.

However in THAT day we will ask Christ of nothing, but we will ask the Father in Christ's name, and the Father will give it to us.

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.[/ib
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
 
They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (Joh 16:12-23 KJV)


Also, there is another witness to this, Christ will give all his authority to the Father:

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:24-28 KJV)

And yet, they are one, the Father and the Son.

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Joh 10:37-38 KJV)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 09:38:05 PM by eggi »
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: OT Sacrifices Through the Lord's Eyes
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 04:34:35 PM »

Hello  Joe

You invite a vast limitless answer to your question : What did you think the Son of God the Father full of glory, at His Father’s side would be feeling or thinking as the unblemished animal was slain on the alter?

This brought me to re focus on the Scripture that reveals to us  that the God of Abraham is Christ.
1 Cor 10 : 1- 4 …all passed through the sea; and were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.

Regarding slain animals, it was the Hebrew ritual that when entering a blood covenant they were to follow nine specific steps. One of these steps was to  split an animal right down the middle and lay each half to each side to form a pathway and to then walk right through them. This symbolised dying to self and giving up the right to their own life to start a new life with the covenant partners unto death. As Abram was directed by Christ to  bring a three year old heifer, she-goat, ram, turtle dove and young pigeon for this ritual, it was Christ who as a “smoking  oven and a flaming torch passed between those pieces.” Gen 15:17

So, Christ as the Spirit and Son of God, had already authored the prelude to Calvary right at the covenant made with Abram. Christ was active and working throughout the OT in preparation for the NT and the fulfilment of the prophecies.

You ask ...What would He be feeling or thinking?

My thoughts often turn to what was the depth of His pain suffered for us. My conclusion :  I believe we can be sure and persuaded beyond doubt as Paul was as he expressed in Rom 8 : 38,39 that neither  death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor things impending and threatening nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation is able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ…”

Can the drop of the ocean contain the ocean? It can know the Ocean in part...as we by becoming acquainted with the Spirit of Christ only know and see in part. How do  molecules contained in a drop in the ocean (think or feel ) once they have no more skin?…Perhaps here is the answer….. 
Eph 1 : 18 By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you CAN KNOW and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints, His set apart ones 19. and so that you CAN KNOW and understand what is the IMMEASURABLE AND UNLIMITED AND SURPASING GREATNESS of His power in and for us who believe as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength 20 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead…….

Christ is the measure and fullness of  perfection and completeness is found in Him. As we understand and know Him we attain the standard height of Christ’s own  perfection and stature.  Eph 4 : 12, 13. This is Christ’s work and Gods will for us. WE CAN KNOW.....!

Your question triggered these thoughts that do not even begin  to scratch the surface of an adequate enough answer…..
 
Is the insight not perhaps contained in the fact that for beasts and man alike, death returns the spirit to God and the body to earth. We humans grow attachments to our pets. Any animal lover will know that each animal has its own personality that dies/sleeps after death. How does God view death then? How did Jesus regard human and animal pain and suffering before He descended from Heaven to earth? I believe the answer lies in Heb 4 :15 wherein we are informed that we have a High Priest Who is able to understand and sympathize and have a SHARED FEELING with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, for He has been tempted in EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE yet He was without sin.

For me our deficiency is growing into His completeness and by way of His sin offering He created the bridge over which Heb 4 : 15 could be written and qualified by His own death that connects Him to us showing His feelings drawing  us into a closer intimacy and union with Him. I think He always had these feelings of love for us. No greater love has He who laid His life down for us.....By definition I do not think Christ's love is terminal but by essenced is life. Human love is fickle, intemporate, and conditonal. I believe that as Christ descended from Heaven, that Heaven is not a place but a condtion to which we are raised up into newness of life.....His life!


Arcturus :)


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