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when the saints come marching in
stego:
Hi all,
Do i understand correctly that all the old testament saints will have to go through God's great white thrown judgement? I am trying to fully grasp why, as it seems the only thing differentiating them at the end of their lives to us is that we have had the opportunity to belive in Jesus Christ. So my question is what still yet needs to be purified in those who were faithful believers in God such that they would need to go through judgement? And my second question is, isn't it true for the elect that even at the time of their physical deaths they are still not fully purified from sin? So when do they finish purification if they don't ever go through the white thrown judgement? Are the elect fully purified when they are resurected at the first resurection to reign with Jesus? Thanks for your help all.
Sean
Kat:
Hi Sean,
--- Quote --- Do i understand correctly that all the old testament saints will have to go through God's great white thrown judgement?
--- End quote ---
This is the answer to an email to Ray, I think it covers your first question.
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html
Dear Dave:
Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.
What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing! And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:18). Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ. "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes. Are we 'saved by faith?' NO--'By GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8. Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life? NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).
Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins? NO. No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']" (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).
Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?' Answer: "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN H-I-M [JESUS]" (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.
Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.
God be with you,
Ray
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Concerning the second part of your post.
--- Quote --- Are the elect fully purified when they are resurected at the first resurection to reign with Jesus?
--- End quote ---
I think that is correct.
The elect only have the guarantee or earnest of our inheritance now. They are being shaped and molded throught the experiences in this life, but not until they are in the resurrection will they be complete.
Eph 1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, v.12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
v.13 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, v.14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
v.43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
v.44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Jesus is now at the Father's right hand in glory, and "we shall be like Him".
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, v.4 having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
stego:
Thanks Kat, you fully answered my questions.
EKnight:
Is this thread saying that at the time of their death, the elect will still have been sinning. What then does it mean to "endure" to the end?
And why must infants who have died need to go through the LOF? I understand that we are born to be "sinning machines" but an infant can't consciously sin.
Whatever help you can provide. Thanks.
Eileen
musicman:
Eileen, you would agree that infants have to mature before entering into the kingdom, wouldn't you? I would say that they will have a much easier time than those of us that have lived an entire life of sinfullness. Besides, infants have no knowledge of anything so they must first learn. I think Hitler will wish that he had died as an infant when he begins to undergo all of that torment in the LOF.
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