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Craig

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Members Join In
« on: November 21, 2006, 01:57:26 PM »

Hi Ray, I found your website and simply love it!  I was wondering, though, it is my understanding that it is not scriptural to eat pork, therefore I don't.  But my family is constantly giving me grief, saying that the law was abolished when Jesus came, and its not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the mouth (but that has to do with cleansing of the hands, if I'm not mistaken), and their other argument is "As long as you give thanks over it, it is okay to eat it.".    Would you agree that Isaiah 66:15-17 backs up at the time of Jesus second coming, we are still not to eat pork (as well as other unclean animals mentioned in Genesis).  My family also argues that all that is for the Jews.  I disagree....help me please, to see the light.  The more I dig into the Bible the more confused I get.... May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Julie
 

Dear Julie:
You bring up an interesting point and an interesting Scripture. I have learned and I have begun the last couple of years, to stress that we need to read ALL THE WORDS of a Scipture and pay close attention to ALL the words.  You have done what most do with a Scripture such as this:You noticed that Swine (pig, pork, sow, bacon, ham, etc.) was eaten by those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves IN THE GARDEN BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST...."  Excuse me, but what did Isaiah say?  Forget for the moment what he meant; what did he SAY?  Ah, we'll just check another translation and get this thing all straightened out:
 
"The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals..." (Concordant Literal Old Testament).  Ah there it is.  There is WHAT?  What-he-say?  "...to the gardens follow one by one in the portals." I'll give ya ten dollars if you can explain that?  Let's try another:
 
"...for the gardens, Behind a certain thing [what's 'a thing?'] in the midst...." (Rotherham's Amplified Bible). Is that better?  How about this:

            "...to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst...." (The New International Version). Any ideas?  No?

            It only seems to get worse the more versions we read.

            "...as followers of one who stands within...."  (New American Version for Cathoilics).  Boy oh boy, NOW we are getting down to it.  Down to WHAT?   Tell ya what:  I will give FIFTY dollars if you can tell me what that means?

            But let's go on.  You over look or at least failed to question another portion of this Scripture:  "...eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."

            Isaiah talked for SIXTY-SIX CHAPTERS, and climaxes with this stern warning concerning those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves, IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together says the Lord."

            You forgot to mention "THE MOUSE," Julia.  Who are those who are guilty of, "eating THE MOUSE?"  We know that most of the world eats pork, but who eats MICE?

            What religion or large group of people is so prominant that they have the climax of the Book of Isaiah attributed to them, who "...in the GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE, eating...THE MOUSE...'   And where is the Second and Third Witness to this Scripture to prove its meaning?

            Three verses later we read: "...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED...." (Verse 24).  What is that?  Now to the Sermon on the mount:

            "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT and whosoever shall say to his borther, Raca, shall be in danger of the COUNCIL [Jewish Sanhedrin], but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL [GEHENNA] FIRE...where the worm is not deceaseing and the fire is not going out" (Matt. 5:21 & Mark 9:44).

            WHEN was anyone angry with a brother and in danger of "hell fire?"  When did anyone call a brother Rach or fool and endangered himself of the Sanhedrin (which no longer exists) or Gehenna Fire?

            If you can explain Matt. 5:21-22 and Isaiah 66:17 & 24, you will have a pretty good understanding of THE ENTIRE BIBLE!

            Let me know what you think?  I have given you GIANT clues--to him that has an ear!  The members of the Forum can join in too, if you wish. Send me your explanation of Isaiah 66:17?  Who said that the Bible was EASY to understand?

            I will be explaining these verses in Part D of my Hell series (if I ever get it finished).

            God be with you,

            Ray
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Craig

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Re: Members Join In
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 10:29:53 AM »

    are the gardens mentioned in Isaiah 66:17 the religuos institutions of the world?and the one tree is the so called leader of the institution? the swines flesh being falsified bible doctrine? the abomination is belief in a free will? and the mouse is the weak who are swallowed up by their doctrine? seen this on the message board and it got my curiosity up. thanks Richard-King NC
     

    Richard:
    But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?"  How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
    Ray


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Craig

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Re: Members Join In
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 03:15:35 PM »

 Hi brother Smith,
     
    In regards to "why they eat mice."
     
    I'm thinking that the key is in this verse maybe?
     
    Isa 66:3 KJVR
    (3) He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their so ul delighteth in their abominations.
     
    They eat mice because their soul delights in their own ways and abominations.
     
    The Philistines worshipped golden mice.
     
    1Sa 6:4 KJVR
    (4) Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
     
    Jesus said that His flesh and blood needed to be eaten.
     
    Joh 6:53 KJVR
    (53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
     
    Since the people in Isa 66:17 were eating mice rather than eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, then they were practicing their own man made doctrins and religion. The babylon harlot system.
     
    Please let me know if I'm on the right track.
     
    Blessings to you,
     
    Andy


Dear Andy;:
Very good. You are closer than anyone thus far. In fact you are the only one who mentioned eating the body of Christ. Obviously the eating of mice is a symbol of something spiritual, not literally eating mice. Swine and mice are two categories of "unclean meats" under the law of Moses. So if we are not to eat unclean meats such as swine and mice (not mice specifically, but mice is an example of a vast category of of little fury creations not to be eaten), are we to eat clean food--beef, turkey, etc?  No, if the "mice" is symbolic of what not to eat, then what we ARE to eat must also be symbolic.  And contrary to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus meant eating His body as a symbol for something spiritual as well.
 
But there is more:  we have the garden? and its connection with "the worm that dies not and unquenched fire?" Also, WHEN does this occur?  Before the resurrection to judgment?  After the resurrection to Judgment?  Both before AND after? Etc. There needs to be a connection between Judgment in Matt. 5:22, and Gehenna fire, and this garden which represents something that only one other commented on.
 
Does the lake of fire begin when Christ begins His reign on this earth?  Are the "Gehenna of fire," and the "lake of fire" the same? Are they in use at the same time?  Will then, those who say "Raca" to their brothers, in Christ's Kingdom, be cast into the lake of fire, BEORE the resurrection of the dead unbelievers to the Great White Throne of Judgment? Etc., etc., etc.  I will cover it in Part D.  There is a lot of things involved in these few verses.
 
God be with you,
Ray
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Craig

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Re: Members Join In
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2006, 08:40:12 PM »

    Hello Ray

    You invite us to give our efforts to explain Isaiah 66:17................so here is my attempt to answer your beautiful invitation for me to think and search!....

    Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each  one in the midst, eaters of swine?s flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse ? these are cut off together, says Jehovah. (Interlinear Bible Translation)

    Each one in the midst for me  means the beast within us before our conversion and practising abominations idolatry and hateful things to God?. 2 Thes 2 : 4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshipped, even to his actually taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

    This splits, for me into three kinds of self sanctification.


    a)   INDIVIDUAL: 2 Cor 10 : 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God?.

    The individual that follows their imagination and puffs up with self exaltation, self aggrandizement and self-approval?this is counter and in opposition to true knowledge of God.

    Self sanctification with the Beast in the midst of each one of us before conversion.

    ?   Rom 2 : 8 But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.
    ?   Rev 21 : 8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practices of magic arts and the idolaters, those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God, and all liars, those who knowingly conv ey untruth (Church heresy)  by word or deed, all of these shall have their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.  Matt 23 : 9 And do not call anyone in the church on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in Heaven.  Matt 10 : 37 He who loves and takes more pleasure in father or mother more than in Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves and takes more pleasure in son or daughter more than in Me is not worthy of Me.

    b)   NATIONAL: 2 Tim 4 : 3  ?there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food ? catch opinions that tickle their fancy. They?ll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.(The Message)
    As in Israel?s sins of idolatry in the gardens with Asherah or totem pole type idols called tree here?.The centres of idolatry were in the midst of wooden places or sacred groves and high places?.(like the high places of Christend om, sacred groves of idolatry where statues are kissed and images are worshiped. These wooden places that will burn down as stubble under the consuming fire of God)

    The idea here is that people will seek to be sanctified and ceremonially purified (accepted, tagged and labelled as belonging to this or that Church or sacred grove group.  Made part of this group by public  baptism into such a group made ceremonially united to their teachings through group traditionalism and customs of man made doctrine which are to God swine and mouse sacrifices to idols.)
    ?   Lev 11 : 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you?.vs. 41-42?and every creeping thing (all creatures who move on their bellies like snakes,  creatures, lizards, frogs, mice, rats, hares and all creatures having more than four legs were unclean to Israel.) that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
    For me this widens into cultures that look away from Christ and are known to me  as the Pagan religions  with the Asherah pole in their midst and ( as in those who have entered by another gate who are the brigands and thieves in the sheep fold John 10 : 1 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, elsewhere, from some other quarter, is a thief and a robber )as in the little Foxes that spoil the vine working as employees of Mystery Babylon.

    This is  National to me because there are for me only two Nations. Those who know Christ?s voice, who follow and aspire to Him and those who don?t.

    c)   SPIRITUAL: Rom 9 : 27 And Isaiah calls out over Isra el; Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea (many are called), only the remnant, a small portion of them( the chosen, the proven faithful one?s) will be saved from perdition, condemnation, judgment.
    Heb12 : 15 Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look after one another, to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God?s grace, His unmerited favour and spiritual blessing, in order that no root of resentment, rancour, bitterness, or hatred shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it.....Link to Matt 5:21-22 perhaps?

    If we feel superior or prideful against those who persecute us, who slander us and those who speak contemptuously against us?.if we do not forgive and pray for them who abuse us,?if we find ourselves in a situation wherein we know others are harmed because of our vanity or pride and we do not try to make peace?if we take our place before God at the expense of ot hers?If we feel we are the elect and superior ones who are meat eaters and if we diminish the little ones of Christ  though self appointed vanity and pride falling prey to thinking we are more blessed, more favoured and more important to God.. we can be liable to join them for whom the Lake of Fire is prepared!

    Forgive them Father?for they know not what they do?.is to us the direction we need assume if we are to lay down our lives for those who are stampeding us to death as they hurry on their way into delusions prepared for them by God and fire unquenchable made living in a real experience of unquenchable attachments to greed, lust, envy and all the burning worms that eat away at the soul given to the sins of the carnal  prideful unloving vanity of the flesh..

    From a junior student in the sound awesome doctrines taught through you. Smiley

    Arcturus

     
    Dear Arcturus:
    As most of the attempts at this difficult verse, you too have given some good answers.  And your answers are true. However, verse 17 appears not to go against all humanity, as back a few verses we have God's spiritual nation being born in one day, then back three verses in verse 14 we read of those whose "heart shall rejoice" because "the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES."  So I do not believe that God's Elect are part of those mentioned eating mice in the garden.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray
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Craig

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Re: Members Join In
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2006, 01:01:40 PM »

> Hi Ray,
>
> I've been studying this verse and have come to some interesting ideas on
> this.
> So here's what I think this 'may' be about.
>
> I think the context of this chapter 66, is Christ's return.
> First in v. 2 His address is to the Saints,
>
> v.2..."But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and
> contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."
>
> Then in v.3-5 His address is to the church,
>
> v.3...."These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their
> abominations;"
> v. 4...."because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not
> listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did
> not delight."
> v.5...."Your brothers who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have
> said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they
> who shall be put to shame. "
>
> v.6 Christ's return and v.7-14 I believe all these verses are about the
> resurrection of the Saints.
>
> v. 10-16...."10Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love
> her;....and the hand of the LORD shall be known to his servants,..."
> ... "14and he shall show his indignation against His enemies." (this is
> Christ's return in power Rev. 19:11,15). "15For behold, the LORD will come
> in fire,.....16and those slain by the LORD shall be many."
>
> Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens,
> following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice,
> shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
>
> In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"
> ;
> The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.
>
> 1Co 1:2 "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in
> Christ Jesus, called to be saints..."
>
> In v. 17 "to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,"
>
> Is this speaking of the church, only partakes of the tree of the knowledge
> of good and evil, and not of the other tree in the midst of the garden, the
> tree of life (Jesus Christ)?
>
> Gen. 2:9..... "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree
> of the knowledge of good and evil."
>
> In v.17 "eating pig's flesh and the abomination"
>
> To eat is to consume, and can refer to getting knowledge of good or bad.
>
> Rev 2:7 "To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life,
> which is in the paradise of God." (conquers or Saints, eat or comsume
> Christ's Spirit)
&g t;
> In v. 17 the eating of pig's flesh, in OT (this scripture Isaiah is in the
> OT) this was unclean.
>
> Deu 14:8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud,
> is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you
> shall not touch."
>
> In v. 3 it was speaking of the church, who offer's pig's blood (something
> unclean to God), and they delight in their abominations.
>
> v.3 "he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;....
> These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their
> abominations;"
>
> In v. 17 mouse (Webster's Intermediate Dic.) mouse or mice 2 : a person
> without spirit or courage---mouse-like.
>
> The end of v. 17 "shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
>
> Rev 6:14 "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every < BR>> mountain and island was removed from its place."
> Rev 6:17 "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
> Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is
> Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of
> her sexual immorality."
>
> So is this way off the mark?
> Kat


Dear Kat:  Well, you were doing pretty good up until you come to the garden and

the "one in the midst."  Eating of the tree of he knowledge of good and evil has some

"good" in it, but eating swine and mice has nothing good in it.  So you go off a little

here, although most of your thoughts are correct if not completely fitting in this section

of Scripture.

Only one person so far has presented a proper explanation of the proper conduct as

opposed to eathing swine and mice, but there are a number of things going on here,

and that is why the verse is so strange.

God be with you,

Ray
>
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