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Andy_MI

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« on: November 21, 2006, 04:48:19 PM »

Hi Ray, I found your website and simply love it!  I was wondering, though, it is my understanding that it is not scriptural to eat pork, therefore I don't.  But my family is constantly giving me grief, saying that the law was abolished when Jesus came, and its not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the mouth (but that has to do with cleansing of the hands, if I'm not mistaken), and their other argument is "As long as you give thanks over it, it is okay to eat it.".    Would you agree that Isaiah 66:15-17 backs up at the time of Jesus second coming, we are still not to eat pork (as well as other unclean animals mentioned in Genesis).  My family also argues that all that is for the Jews.  I disagree....help me please, to see the light.  The more I dig into the Bible the more confused I get.... May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Julie
 

Dear Julie:
You bring up an interesting point and an interesting Scripture. I have learned and I have begun the last couple of years, to stress that we need to read ALL THE WORDS of a Scipture and pay close attention to ALL the words.  You have done what most do with a Scripture such as this:You noticed that Swine (pig, pork, sow, bacon, ham, etc.) was eaten by those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves IN THE GARDEN BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST...."  Excuse me, but what did Isaiah say?  Forget for the moment what he meant; what did he SAY?  Ah, we'll just check another translation and get this thing all straightened out:
 
"The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals..." (Concordant Literal Old Testament).  Ah there it is.  There is WHAT?  What-he-say?  "...to the gardens follow one by one in the portals." I'll give ya ten dollars if you can explain that?  Let's try another:
 
"...for the gardens, Behind a certain thing [what's 'a thing?'] in the midst...." (Rotherham's Amplified Bible). Is that better?  How about this:

            "...to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst...." (The New International Version). Any ideas?  No?

            It only seems to get worse the more versions we read.

            "...as followers of one who stands within...."  (New American Version for Cathoilics).  Boy oh boy, NOW we are getting down to it.  Down to WHAT?   Tell ya what:  I will give FIFTY dollars if you can tell me what that means?

            But let's go on.  You over look or at least failed to question another portion of this Scripture:  "...eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."

            Isaiah talked for SIXTY-SIX CHAPTERS, and climaxes with this stern warning concerning those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves, IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together says the Lord."

            You forgot to mention "THE MOUSE," Julia.  Who are those who are guilty of, "eating THE MOUSE?"  We know that most of the world eats pork, but who eats MICE?

            What religion or large group of people is so prominant that they have the climax of the Book of Isaiah attributed to them, who "...in the GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE, eating...THE MOUSE...'   And where is the Second and Third Witness to this Scripture to prove its meaning?

            Three verses later we read: "...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED...." (Verse 24).  What is that?  Now to the Sermon on the mount:

            "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT and whosoever shall say to his borther, Raca, shall be in danger of the COUNCIL [Jewish Sanhedrin], but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL [GEHENNA] FIRE...where the worm is not deceaseing and the fire is not going out" (Matt. 5:21 & Mark 9:44).

            WHEN was anyone angry with a brother and in danger of "hell fire?"  When did anyone call a brother Rach or fool and endangered himself of the Sanhedrin (which no longer exists) or Gehenna Fire?

            If you can explain Matt. 5:21-22 and Isaiah 66:17 & 24, you will have a pretty good understanding of THE ENTIRE BIBLE!

            Let me know what you think?  I have given you GIANT clues--to him that has an ear!  The members of the Forum can join in too, if you wish. Send me your explanation of Isaiah 66:17?  Who said that the Bible was EASY to understand?

            I will be explaining these verses in Part D of my Hell series (if I ever get it finished).

            God be with you,

            Ray
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orion77

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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 07:52:59 PM »

(Isa 66:17 LITV)  Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine's flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse, these are cut off together, says Jehovah.

(Isa 66:18 LITV)  For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.


This is interesting, notice they sanctify and purify 'themselves' to the gardens each one in the midst.  So, naturally we must ask what is in the midst of the garden of Eden?


(Gen 2:9 LITV)  And out of the ground Jehovah God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The Tree of Life was also in the middle of the garden; also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(Gen 3:2 LITV)  And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,

(Gen 3:3 LITV)  but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.


Be careful to notice God said there are 'two' trees in the middle.  Now, Eve speaks of a single tree in the garden.  They were free to eat of the 'Tree of Life', but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 


(Gen 2:16 LITV)  And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;

(Gen 2:17 LITV)  but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.


I think this is speaking of the carnality in each of us, that we desire to chose and make our own gods to gain the knowledge of good and evil, instead of relying on the one and only God and eat His fruit. 

To eat of the Tree of Life, it takes a denying of self and our own righteous works and enter the sabbath rest of God.  This also goes along good with repentence of 'dead works'.


(Heb 9:14 LITV)  by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!

(Heb 9:15 LITV)  And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

(Heb 9:16 LITV)  For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.

(Heb 9:17 LITV)  For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.


Cool verses here in Hebrews.  There can not be any 'dead works' from those who truly follow Christ and enter the new covenant.  It is only affirmed over those dead.  The 'first death'?


Probably plenty more here, any other thoughts?

God bless,

Gary


PS--read 1Sam.:chapter 6.   God seems to have a sense of humor with self righteous works that coincides with the mouse or mice.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 09:30:19 PM by orion77 »
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sj

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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 11:53:34 PM »

Lev 11:29-30
These also shall be unclean to you among the swarming things that swarm on the earth:
the weasel, and the mouse, and the great lizard after its kind;
and the gecko, and the monitor, and the lizard, and the sand lizard, and chameleon.
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Kat

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 12:01:32 AM »

I've been studying this verse and have come to some interesting ideas on this.
So here's what I think this 'may' be about.

I think the context of this chapter 66, is Christ's return.
First in v. 2 His address is to the Saints,

v.2..."But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."

Then in v.3-5 His address is to the church,

v.3...."These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
v. 4...."because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."
v.5...."Your brothers who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they who shall be put to shame. "

v.6 Christ's return and v.7-14 I believe all these verses are about the resurrection of the Saints.

v. 10-16...."10Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her;....and the hand of the LORD shall be known to his servants,..."
... "14and he shall show his indignation against His enemies." (this is Christ's return in power Rev. 19:11,15).  "15For behold, the LORD will come in fire,.....16and those slain by the LORD shall be many."

Isa 66:17  "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."

In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"

The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.

1Co 1:2  "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints..."

In v. 17 "to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,"

Is this speaking of the church, only partakes of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and not of the other tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of life (Jesus Christ)?

Gen. 2:9..... "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

In v.17 "eating pig's flesh and the abomination"

To eat is to consume, and can refer to getting knowledge of good or bad.

Rev 2:7  "To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." (conquers or Saints, eat or comsume Christ's Spirit)

In v. 17 the eating of pig's flesh, in OT (this scripture Isaiah is in the OT) this was unclean.
 
Deu 14:8  "And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."

In v. 3 it was speaking of the church, who offer's pig's blood (something unclean to God), and they delight in their abominations.

v.3  "he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;.... These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"

In v. 17 mouse (Webster's Intermediate Dic.) mouse or mice 2 : a person without spirit or courage---mouse-like.

The end of v. 17 "shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."

Rev 6:14  "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Rev 6:17  "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Rev 14:8  Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."

This is all put together as I see it,
but I realize that it is not going to be totally right, and maybe not at all right.
I would appreciate it, if someone could bring better understanding to any of this.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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orion77

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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 10:57:04 AM »

So true, good points.  This got me thinking of David and the Psalms.  Here is David, a man after Gods own heart, always speaking of being surrounded by his enemies.  Those self righteous workers are right in the midst right along with us, always there constantly condemning setting traps. 

Jesus said we will be hated by all men for His names sake.  Here again, being surrounded by the enemies of God.  These too are the ones who believe in God, but deny His saving power.  Now, seeing us in this situation, God requires us to forgive them.  Amazing stuff here, this to me is just another proof of the non-existence of their fabled hellhole.

Ray is right, there is plenty here.   8)

God bless,

Gary
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YellowStone

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 12:50:14 PM »

What a wonderful discussion :)

Isa 66:17
  • They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.


I am by no means a scholar, so please forgive my ignorance. :)

The above verse seems to have two main parts:

1. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh,
2.  and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

So what/who is the abomination? It can only be those of the first part of this verse.

This then leaves those and the mouse shall be consumed together. I do not think that this verse in any way indicates that those of part 1 eat mice.

The 2nd witness to the fact that mice are unclean can be found at:

Lev 11:29
  • These also [shall be] unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,


This of course does not answer the question of whether or not the flessh of swine is still considered unclean. Christ spoke of swine on more than one occasion; however, he never explicitly indicated that they were not to be eaten. Christ did not exactly paint a pleasant picture concerning pigs and by reading the Scripture below, one must make their own mind up concerning the cleanliness.

I for one do eat pork, ham and bacon. Am I going against God's will/plan.  I do not believe so; however, I can only pray that his full discernment concerning this issue is given me at the time I need it. God has been ever so gracious to me, and though I am undeserving of his generosity, I know in my heart that I will be given what I need when I need it.

The words of Jesus concerning swine.

Mat 7:6
  • Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mat 8:30
  • And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

Mat 8:31
  • So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Mat 8:32
  • And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Mar 5:11
  • Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

Mar 5:12
  • And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Mar 5:13
  • And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Mar 5:14
  • And they that fed the swine fled, and told [it] in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

Mar 5:16
  • And they that saw [it] told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and [also] concerning the swine.

Luk 8:32
  • And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Luk 8:33
  • Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

Luk 15:15
  • And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

Luk 15:16
  • And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.




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chuckt

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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 01:13:31 PM »

holy smokes what a wonderfull study!!

i see that the word mouse could be acually spider, anyone have anything on this??

probably from the same as (05908) in the secondary sense of attacking


just thinking here, why mouse?

peace
chuck
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Andy_MI

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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 02:22:48 PM »

 are the gardens mentioned in Isaiah 66:17 the religuos institutions of the world?and the one tree is the so called leader of the institution? the swines flesh being falsified bible doctrine? the abomination is belief in a free will? and the mouse is the weak who are swallowed up by their doctrine? seen this on the message board and it got my curiosity up. thanks Richard-King NC
     

    Richard:
    But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?"  How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"
    Ray
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sansmile

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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2006, 05:01:35 PM »

Hi,

Kat we (my hubby and i ) agree with what you see. With regard to the mice, the philistines in Samuel sent the ark back with their sin offering, which included 5 golden mice.

(1Sa 5:11)  So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.

(1Sa 6:3)  And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but in any wise return him a trespass offering: then ye shall be healed, and it shall be known to you why his hand is not removed from you.

(1Sa 6:4)  Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.


1Sa 6:5)  Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.

These mice where images, like false idols.

Also, serpents eat mice (vermin) and satan was the serpent in the Garden. But where is the synagogue of satan?.......in the churches.


This all links in to Revelation 19 when Jesus comes back.

Also, i see them, when they are behind the tree, that this is the churches hiding behind the cross, when they know not Him. Gnawing away  like mice, on their fleshly desires ?


Sansmile



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M_Oliver

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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 08:15:45 PM »

holy smokes what a wonderfull study!!

i see that the word mouse could be acually spider, anyone have anything on this??

probably from the same as (05908) in the secondary sense of attacking


just thinking here, why mouse?

peace
chuck

Saw the same Chuck.  Kind of has me scratching my head...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 08:16:52 PM by M_Oliver »
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M_Oliver

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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 08:22:33 PM »

Also, i see them, when they are behind the tree, that this is the churches hiding behind the cross, when they know not Him. Gnawing away  like mice, on their fleshly desires ?


Sansmile

Thought provoking Sansmile  ;D.

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hillsbororiver

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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 08:42:35 PM »

Do these verses in Isaiah 65 give us more keys to understanding?

Isa 65:2  I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
 
Isa 65:3  A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
 
Isa 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
 
Isa 65:5  Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

The mouse(5909) in Isa 66:17 is defined in Strong's as a "nibbling mouse" as well as "attacking."

H5909
עכבּר
‛akbâr
ak-bawr'
Probably from the same as H5908 in the secondary sense of attacking; a mouse (as nibbling): - mouse.

What is being fed and consumed in the churches even by the lukewarm nibblers is an abomination to the Lord?

That is what I am seeing.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

PS I am looking forward to Ray's answer.
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hillsbororiver

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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 09:10:15 PM »

Yes Sansmile,

The tree reference is right on!

Acts 5:30 (Amplified Bible)
   
30The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, Whom you killed by hanging Him on a tree (cross).
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ned

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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 01:21:38 AM »

Isa 66:17 (KJV) They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.  Note, "tree" is not in the original transcripts.

(CLV) The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals, eating the flesh of swine, and the roamer and the mouse. They shall be swept up together,averring is Yahweh."

Those who claim to know God, but walk in their own ways and don't search for the truth, (just like those in the OT times who offered sacrifices to the Lord, but their heart was far from him), this self-work is blasphemous to our Lord. These people believe that their works are actually righteous.  These are people that provoke God to anger continuously. These are self-sanctified and self-cleansed people. In the midst of the garden, (field/world/or church) these people serve themselves, through the gateway they will follow, one after another, learning what is unclean, and idolatrous, all being entangled in this network of filth. These people shall be all-together consumed by our Father, by His fire, and the slain shall be many.


I think I've summarized what a lot of you have already said.
This is an amazing passage and sure reveals a lot!

----------------------------------------------------------
my references;
1.  mouse H5909, from H5908:
עכּבישׁ  ‛akkâbîysh  ak-kaw-beesh'
Probably from an unused root in the literal sense of entangling; a spider (as weaving a network): - spider.

2.  Isa 66:16  The LORD's fiery sword will bring justice everywhere on this earth and execute many people

3.  Isa 65:2-5  All day long I have reached out to stubborn and sinful people going their own way. They keep making me angry by sneering at me, while offering sacrifices to idols in gardens and burning incense to them on bricks. They spend their nights hiding in burial caves; they eat the meat of pigs, cooked in sauces made of stuff unfit to eat. And then they say to others, "Don't come near us! We're dedicated to God." Such people are like smoke, irritating my nose all day.

4.  Mat 7:13  Go in through the narrow gate. The gate to destruction is wide, and the road that leads there is easy to follow. A lot of people go through that gate.

----------------------------------------------------------


Love,
Marie

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hillsbororiver

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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 09:02:58 AM »

Very good post Marie,

It is interesting how the different translations have a variety of definitions and interpretations. I checked out many on "Biblegate" but I failed to consult Rotherham's.


This is how it is written there;

Isa 66:17 [[They who hallow themselves and purify themselves for the gardens. Behind a certain thing(b) in the midst, Who eat the flesh of swine and the abomination, and the mouse]]
<Together shall be cut off>
Declareth Yahweh

Footnote (b)

"one" 'After one in the midst' . . the mystagogue or chief celebrant in the mystic performance

Mystery Babylon?

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Deborah-Leigh

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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 03:09:09 PM »

Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine’s flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse – these are cut off together, says Jehovah. (Interlinear Bible Translation)

Each one in the midst for me means the beast within us before our conversion and practising abominations idolatry and hateful things to God…. 2 Thes 2 : 4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshipped, even to his actually taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

This splits, for me into three kinds of self-sanctification.


a)   INDIVIDUAL: 2 Cor 10 : 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God….

The individual that follows their imagination and puffs up with self-exaltation, self-aggrandizement and self-approval…this is counter and in opposition to true knowledge of God.

Self-sanctification with the Beast in the midst of each one of us before conversion.

·   Rom 2 : 8 But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.
·   Rev 21 : 8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters, those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God, and all liars, those who knowingly convey untruth (Church heresy)  by word or deed, all of these shall have their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.  Matt 23 : 9 And do not call anyone in the church on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in Heaven.  Matt 10 : 37 He who loves and takes more pleasure in father or mother more than in Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves and takes more pleasure in son or daughter more than in Me is not worthy of Me.

b)   NATIONAL: 2 Tim 4 : 3  …there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food – catch opinions that tickle their fancy. They’ll turn their backs on truth and chase mirages.(The Message)
As in Israel’s sins of idolatry in the gardens with Asherah or totem pole type idols called tree here….The centres of idolatry were in the midst of wooden places or sacred groves and high places….(like the high places of Christendom, sacred groves of idolatry where statues are kissed and images are worshiped. These wooden places that will burn down as stubble under the consuming fire of God)

The idea here is that people will seek to be sanctified and ceremonially purified (accepted, tagged and labelled as belonging to this or that Church or sacred grove group.  Made part of this group by public  baptism into such a group made ceremonially united to their teachings through group traditionalism and customs of man made doctrine which are to God swine and mouse sacrifices to idols.)
·   Lev 11 : 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you….vs. 41-42…and every creeping thing (all creatures who move on their bellies like snakes,  creatures, lizards, frogs, mice, rats, hares and all creatures having more than four legs were unclean to Israel.) that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten. Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
For me this widens into cultures that look away from Christ and are known to me  as the Pagan religions  with the Asherah pole in their midst and ( as in those who have entered by another gate who are the brigands and thieves in the sheep fold John 10 : 1 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, he who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, elsewhere, from some other quarter, is a thief and a robber )as in the little Foxes that spoil the vine working as employees of Mystery Babylon.

This is  National to me because there are for me only two Nations. Those who know Christ’s voice, who follow and aspire to Him and those who don’t.

c)   SPIRITUAL: Rom 9 : 27 And Isaiah calls out over Israel; Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea (many are called), only the remnant, a small portion of them( the chosen, the proven faithful one’s) will be saved from perdition, condemnation, judgment.
Heb12 : 15 Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look after one another, to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace, His unmerited favour and spiritual blessing, in order that no root of resentment, rancour, bitterness, or hatred shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it.( Is this perhaps the link to Matt 5 : 21 ?)

If we feel superior or prideful against those who persecute us, who slander us and those who speak contemptuously against us….if we do not forgive and pray for them who abuse us,…if we find ourselves in a situation wherein we know others are harmed because of our vanity or pride and we do not try to make peace…if we take our place before God at the expense of others…If we feel we are the elect and superior ones who are meat eaters and if we diminish the little ones of Christ  though self appointed vanity and pride falling prey to thinking we are more blessed, more favoured and more important to God.. we can be liable to join them for whom the Lake of Fire is prepared!

Forgive them Father…for they know not what they do….is to us the direction we need assume if we are to lay down our lives for those who are stampeding us to death as they hurry on their way into delusions prepared for them by God and fire unquenchable made living in a real experience of unquenchable attachments to greed, lust, envy and all the burning worms that eat away at the soul given to the sins of the carnal  prideful unloving vanity of the flesh..

I agree with you Gary .....speaking of the carnality in each of us, that we desire to chose and make our own gods to gain the knowledge of good and evil, instead of relying on the one and only God

I really enjoyed all the  insights and this from  Kat shows many self appointed religions who profess the authority to mediate between us and Christ! In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"

The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.
....or others!....Christ is our Advocate before God not Pope, Pontif or mankind.

Hope to have your thoughts regarding how I see Isaiah 66:17....

Arcturus :)

« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 03:20:24 PM by Arcturus »
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M_Oliver

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Re: Members join in
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 11:44:04 PM »

This is what Ray is trying to get us to zero in on...

Richard:

But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?"  How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"

Ray


I'm stumped so far.  Will try again tomorrow!

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ned

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Re: Members join in
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 01:04:23 AM »


Isa 66:17 [[They who hallow themselves and purify themselves for the gardens. Behind a certain thing(b) in the midst, Who eat the flesh of swine and the abomination, and the mouse]]   <Together shall be cut off>  Declareth Yahweh

Footnote (b)
"one" 'After one in the midst' . . the mystagogue or chief celebrant in the mystic performance

Mystery Babylon?   

Hi Joe,
interesting reference...a mystagogue. This is what I see re: those who are self-sanctified; entering a mystagogue, -  exactly; "mystery babylon", one after the other they follow the ways of man before them> right into the broad gate that leads to destruction.  Mystery is an excellent word here, because it has stumped and blinded so many. Not only is God's kingdom a mystery, but also the iniquity that abounds in this world is a mystery.
2Th 2:7  (KJV)  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?"  How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"   

Hi M Oliver,
That's just it, they THINK they are sanctified by "eating mice", they believe THEY HAVE accepted Jesus, they believe by joining their church they are made right, but they do not see they are entangling themselves in a network of filth. 
What do you see? 

Love,
Marie
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:06:24 AM by Marie »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Members join in
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 01:35:43 AM »

This is what Ray is trying to get us to zero in on...

Richard:

But how are they being "sanctified" by "eating mice?"  How are the religions of the world likened to a "garden?"

Ray


"sanctified"....showing themselves holy. How

"eating mice?" ...through abomnible practices of idolitary . Where

"garden?"...Mystery Babylon and her harlot daughters. Who

Christiandom. (Would the harlot daughters be the other Pagan religions of the world? The religions outside Christianity?)

Nothing literal here.....all symbolic
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:40:25 AM by Arcturus »
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jerry

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Re: Members join in
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 01:43:07 AM »

This is way over my head but sounds like those that set themselves apart are the nation of judah and the other group are the gentile nations and God is going to punish them both together.Now thats what I get out of the literal word,that judah had become as bad and the gentile nations when it came to obeying Him,I could aply to the church that God sees the people that beleave in freewil,those that sanctify themselves,like he does those in the world that are unclean.when I read that it seem to me that there are two groups,those that sanctify themselves and those that eat unclean foods,
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