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Andy_MI:
Hi Ray, I found your website and simply love it! I was wondering, though, it is my understanding that it is not scriptural to eat pork, therefore I don't. But my family is constantly giving me grief, saying that the law was abolished when Jesus came, and its not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the mouth (but that has to do with cleansing of the hands, if I'm not mistaken), and their other argument is "As long as you give thanks over it, it is okay to eat it.". Would you agree that Isaiah 66:15-17 backs up at the time of Jesus second coming, we are still not to eat pork (as well as other unclean animals mentioned in Genesis). My family also argues that all that is for the Jews. I disagree....help me please, to see the light. The more I dig into the Bible the more confused I get.... May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Julie
Dear Julie:
You bring up an interesting point and an interesting Scripture. I have learned and I have begun the last couple of years, to stress that we need to read ALL THE WORDS of a Scipture and pay close attention to ALL the words. You have done what most do with a Scripture such as this:You noticed that Swine (pig, pork, sow, bacon, ham, etc.) was eaten by those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves IN THE GARDEN BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST...." Excuse me, but what did Isaiah say? Forget for the moment what he meant; what did he SAY? Ah, we'll just check another translation and get this thing all straightened out:
"The self-sanctified and the self-cleansed to the gardens follow one by one in the portals..." (Concordant Literal Old Testament). Ah there it is. There is WHAT? What-he-say? "...to the gardens follow one by one in the portals." I'll give ya ten dollars if you can explain that? Let's try another:
"...for the gardens, Behind a certain thing [what's 'a thing?'] in the midst...." (Rotherham's Amplified Bible). Is that better? How about this:
"...to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst...." (The New International Version). Any ideas? No?
It only seems to get worse the more versions we read.
"...as followers of one who stands within...." (New American Version for Cathoilics). Boy oh boy, NOW we are getting down to it. Down to WHAT? Tell ya what: I will give FIFTY dollars if you can tell me what that means?
But let's go on. You over look or at least failed to question another portion of this Scripture: "...eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."
Isaiah talked for SIXTY-SIX CHAPTERS, and climaxes with this stern warning concerning those who: "...sanctify themselves, and purify themselves, IN THE GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE IN THE MIDST, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, AND THE MOUSE, shall be consumed together says the Lord."
You forgot to mention "THE MOUSE," Julia. Who are those who are guilty of, "eating THE MOUSE?" We know that most of the world eats pork, but who eats MICE?
What religion or large group of people is so prominant that they have the climax of the Book of Isaiah attributed to them, who "...in the GARDENS BEHIND ONE TREE, eating...THE MOUSE...' And where is the Second and Third Witness to this Scripture to prove its meaning?
Three verses later we read: "...for their worm shall not die, neither shall their FIRE BE QUENCHED...." (Verse 24). What is that? Now to the Sermon on the mount:
"But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the JUDGMENT and whosoever shall say to his borther, Raca, shall be in danger of the COUNCIL [Jewish Sanhedrin], but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of HELL [GEHENNA] FIRE...where the worm is not deceaseing and the fire is not going out" (Matt. 5:21 & Mark 9:44).
WHEN was anyone angry with a brother and in danger of "hell fire?" When did anyone call a brother Rach or fool and endangered himself of the Sanhedrin (which no longer exists) or Gehenna Fire?
If you can explain Matt. 5:21-22 and Isaiah 66:17 & 24, you will have a pretty good understanding of THE ENTIRE BIBLE!
Let me know what you think? I have given you GIANT clues--to him that has an ear! The members of the Forum can join in too, if you wish. Send me your explanation of Isaiah 66:17? Who said that the Bible was EASY to understand?
I will be explaining these verses in Part D of my Hell series (if I ever get it finished).
God be with you,
Ray
orion77:
(Isa 66:17 LITV) Those who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves to the gardens, each one in the midst, eaters of swine's flesh, and the hateful thing, and the mouse, these are cut off together, says Jehovah.
(Isa 66:18 LITV) For I know their works and their thoughts; it comes to gather all the nations and the tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.
This is interesting, notice they sanctify and purify 'themselves' to the gardens each one in the midst. So, naturally we must ask what is in the midst of the garden of Eden?
(Gen 2:9 LITV) And out of the ground Jehovah God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The Tree of Life was also in the middle of the garden; also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
(Gen 3:2 LITV) And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,
(Gen 3:3 LITV) but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
Be careful to notice God said there are 'two' trees in the middle. Now, Eve speaks of a single tree in the garden. They were free to eat of the 'Tree of Life', but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(Gen 2:16 LITV) And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden;
(Gen 2:17 LITV) but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die.
I think this is speaking of the carnality in each of us, that we desire to chose and make our own gods to gain the knowledge of good and evil, instead of relying on the one and only God and eat His fruit.
To eat of the Tree of Life, it takes a denying of self and our own righteous works and enter the sabbath rest of God. This also goes along good with repentence of 'dead works'.
(Heb 9:14 LITV) by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!
(Heb 9:15 LITV) And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
(Heb 9:16 LITV) For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.
(Heb 9:17 LITV) For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.
Cool verses here in Hebrews. There can not be any 'dead works' from those who truly follow Christ and enter the new covenant. It is only affirmed over those dead. The 'first death'?
Probably plenty more here, any other thoughts?
God bless,
Gary
PS--read 1Sam.:chapter 6. God seems to have a sense of humor with self righteous works that coincides with the mouse or mice.
sj:
Lev 11:29-30
These also shall be unclean to you among the swarming things that swarm on the earth:
the weasel, and the mouse, and the great lizard after its kind;
and the gecko, and the monitor, and the lizard, and the sand lizard, and chameleon.
Kat:
I've been studying this verse and have come to some interesting ideas on this.
So here's what I think this 'may' be about.
I think the context of this chapter 66, is Christ's return.
First in v. 2 His address is to the Saints,
v.2..."But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."
Then in v.3-5 His address is to the church,
v.3...."These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
v. 4...."because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight."
v.5...."Your brothers who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they who shall be put to shame. "
v.6 Christ's return and v.7-14 I believe all these verses are about the resurrection of the Saints.
v. 10-16...."10Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her;....and the hand of the LORD shall be known to his servants,..."
... "14and he shall show his indignation against His enemies." (this is Christ's return in power Rev. 19:11,15). "15For behold, the LORD will come in fire,.....16and those slain by the LORD shall be many."
Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
In v.17 "Those who sanctify an purify themselves"
The elect are sanctify in Christ not themselves.
1Co 1:2 "To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints..."
In v. 17 "to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,"
Is this speaking of the church, only partakes of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and not of the other tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of life (Jesus Christ)?
Gen. 2:9..... "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
In v.17 "eating pig's flesh and the abomination"
To eat is to consume, and can refer to getting knowledge of good or bad.
Rev 2:7 "To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." (conquers or Saints, eat or comsume Christ's Spirit)
In v. 17 the eating of pig's flesh, in OT (this scripture Isaiah is in the OT) this was unclean.
Deu 14:8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."
In v. 3 it was speaking of the church, who offer's pig's blood (something unclean to God), and they delight in their abominations.
v.3 "he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;.... These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;"
In v. 17 mouse (Webster's Intermediate Dic.) mouse or mice 2 : a person without spirit or courage---mouse-like.
The end of v. 17 "shall come to an end together, declares the LORD."
Rev 6:14 "The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Rev 6:17 "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."
This is all put together as I see it,
but I realize that it is not going to be totally right, and maybe not at all right.
I would appreciate it, if someone could bring better understanding to any of this.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
orion77:
So true, good points. This got me thinking of David and the Psalms. Here is David, a man after Gods own heart, always speaking of being surrounded by his enemies. Those self righteous workers are right in the midst right along with us, always there constantly condemning setting traps.
Jesus said we will be hated by all men for His names sake. Here again, being surrounded by the enemies of God. These too are the ones who believe in God, but deny His saving power. Now, seeing us in this situation, God requires us to forgive them. Amazing stuff here, this to me is just another proof of the non-existence of their fabled hellhole.
Ray is right, there is plenty here. 8)
God bless,
Gary
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