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Author Topic: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment  (Read 2040 times)

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M_Oliver

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Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« on: November 26, 2006, 02:39:05 PM »

The part I have a question on is BOLD.  I receive the 2 stage creation no problem.  My question: Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "spirit of man" that He gives us?

__________

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: ‘adam, a human being’] of the dust [Heb: ‘aphar, powdered gray, hence clay’] of the ground [Heb: ‘adamah, soil’]

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: ‘n’shahmah, puff, wind’] of life [Heb: ‘chay, alive, life, living’] and man became [Heb: ‘hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass’] a living [Heb: ‘chay, alive, life, living’] soul [Heb: ‘nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality’]."

Well, there you have it: God’s abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man’s creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn’t. We read of two things in man’s creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God…? God what? There ain’t no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn’t need to do anything after He breathed into him the breathe of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn’t put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it ‘on’ and the light glows: Switch it ‘off’ and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body), the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can’t, so fear God.

__________




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YellowStone

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Re: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2006, 03:21:02 PM »

M_Oliver asked:

The part I have a question on is BOLD.  I receive the 2 stage creation no problem.  My question: Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "spirit of man" that He gives us?



Very good question M_Oliver, :)

As Ray points out, christian churches tend to confuse this subject very well.

The following Scriptures might help you gain greater understanding.

Gen 2:7
  • And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Notice the word "living" which does not mean "immortal"

Job 33:4
  • The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


The Breath of the Almighty is indeed spirit.

Spirit = ruwach {roo'-akh}  Strongs 07307

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
  a) breath
  b) wind
    1) of heaven
    2) quarter (of wind), side
    3) breath of air
    4) air, gas
    5) vain, empty thing
  c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
    1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
    2) courage
    3) temper, anger
    4) impatience, patience
    5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
    6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
    7) prophetic spirit

  d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
    1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

Going on....

Pro 20:27
  • The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

God is a fire:
  Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

And God is Spirit:
  Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Ecc 3:21
  • Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

No one knows my spirit except for the one that gave it. So what happens when we (our mortal soul dies and God's breath departs?

   Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1Cr 2:11
  • For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Once again, no one knows my spirit except the spirit (breath of life) that God gave me.

I find it very interesting that NO MAN knows the things of God, except for God himself. I wonder how many churches would acknowledge that.

I hope this helps.

Love,

Darren
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2006, 05:44:55 PM »

A beautiful question : My question: Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "spirit of man" that He gives us?

with beautiful Scriptures to edify Darren.

This is what came up for me......1 Cor 2 : 11-14....For what person perceives, knows and understands what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns, comes to know and comprehend the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.. 12. Now we have not received the spirit that belongs to the world, but the Holy Spirit Who is from God, given to us that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts of divine favour and blessing so freely and lavishly bestowed on us by God. 13. And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Holy Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who posses the Holy Spirit. 14. But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are follow, meaningless, nonsense to him; and he is incapable of knowing them, of progressively recognizing, understanding and becoming better acquainted with them because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Here is the Message translation:

But you’ve seen and heard it because God by his Spirit has brought it all out into the open before you.
The Spirit, not content to flit around on the surface, dives into the depths of God, and brings out what God planned all along. Who ever knows what you’re thinking and planning except you yourself: the same with God – except that He not only knows what he’s thinking, but He lets us in on it. God offers a full report on the gifts of life and salvation that He is giving us. We don’t have to rely on the world’s guesses and opinions. We didn’t learn this by reading books or going to school; we learned it from God, who taught us person-to-person through Jesus, and we’re passing it on to you in the same firsthand, personal way.
The un spiritual self, just as it is by nature, can’t receive the gifts of God’s Spirit. There’s no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit – God’s Spirit and our spirits in open communion.
Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God’s Spirit is doing, and can’t be judged by un spiritual critics. Isaiah’s question, “Is there anyone around who knows God’s Spirit, anyone who knows what He is doing?” has been answered; Christ knows, and we have Christ’s Spirit.


Here is a snippet from Word on the Street translation

Our wisdom comes personal-delivery from God, but if you try reading it without His decoder – its mumbo-jumbo.  We’ve got privileged access to the Liberator’s (Christ’s) mind – we can download it, use it, apply it. We’ve got a different wisdom! We can tap into the Liberator’s thought processes!


For me I see three types of spirit mentioned in the above scriptures a) God's Spirit b) our spirit given to us by God c) the spirit of the world (Of course as we understand that God creates everything, so we know that nothing is outside Gods purpose and plan. )

I like what it says in the Message translation : God’s Spirit and our spirits in open communion.

So to answer your question, Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "sprit of man" that He gives to us? I would say yes. Not forgetting that our spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God. Our spirit communicates with the Holy Spirit who is our teacher and who is capable of revealing all things to us, even the knowledege of God. For me the Holy Spirit is Christ,  from God the Father who is the Father of spirits....Christ being His first born Son.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 05:47:44 PM by Arcturus »
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PKnowler

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Re: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2006, 07:04:05 PM »

It's interesting that you all are discussing this. I was just having a conversation with someone who believes that people are immortal irregardless of God's gift of eternal life.

Would you mind if I asked the question a little differently? You asked : Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "spirit of man" that He gives us?

I would like to hear opinions on this: Does God's breath make Adam's spirit immortal? Because when a man dies his spirit goes back to God who gave it. So are we then with God in our spirit?

Thanks, Paula
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 07:10:55 PM by PKnowler »
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M_Oliver

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Re: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2006, 07:33:58 PM »

It's interesting that you all are discussing this. I was just having a conversation with someone who believes that people are immortal irregardless of God's gift of eternal life.

Would you mind if I asked the question a little differently? You asked : Does God's "breath of life" contain/equal the "spirit of man" that He gives us?

I would like to hear opinions on this: Does God's breath make Adam's spirit immortal? Because when a man dies his spirit goes back to God who gave it. So are we then with God in our spirit?

Thanks, Paula

Thanks for the replies everyone.  When God first showed me "bad translation" this is one of the first studies I did.  To say the least I strongly dislike this common translation of "spirit" from Hebrew and Greek words that clearly mean wind, breath, breeze, puff, blast of air, current etc.  It is a proven fact that "spirit" conjures up ungodly ideas even among believers.  Ghost comes to mind.  Paula's question comes at a convenient time, it is exactly what I am talking about.  Paula, Ray says in parentheses that the spirit "has no consciousness".  He did not elaborate.  We know the "spirit" returns to God but I don't think we can call it immortal...I mean I think it is unscritural to say the "spirit" is "alive" to begin with??

Darren.  You posted a great Scripture in Job 33:4.  It drives me nuts!  Why do we have to have "spirit" of God and "breath" of the Almighty in the same verse?? H7307 and H5397 are synonymous.  I think I am going to hit this subject hard again.  I really think there is a treasure of some kind in it.

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YellowStone

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Re: Part C The Origin of Endless Punishment
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 12:11:29 AM »

M_Oliver wrote:

Darren.  You posted a great Scripture in Job 33:4.  It drives me nuts!  Why do we have to have "spirit" of God and "breath" of the Almighty in the same verse?? H7307 and H5397 are synonymous.  I think I am going to hit this subject hard again.  I really think there is a treasure of some kind in it.



Wow!! Now you've got me thinking. :)

I think there are some striking parrels between the two words: Spirit and Breath of God.

As you state both words are synonymous in form, God's Spirit, like the wind, blows wherever it pleases. It is the Spirit that is the cause of the world as we know it and all else.

2 Corinthians 3:17
  • The Lord is the spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Regarding Job:

Job 33:4
  • The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


I believe we can rewrite was is said to gain a clearer understanding.

     "God (who is spirit) formed me, and his (breath, spirit, word) gave me life."

We are inherently fleshly human; however, each of us is alive because of God's spirit. This is referred to as the "Spirit of Man" and when we die, our so called spirit (God's breath) returns to God, who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 )

Interestingly, Paul mentions that God, although Spirit, also has a spirit.
1Cr 2:11
  • For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Everything we do here on Earth is achieved because of God's Spirit acting within us. Similarly, God achieves everything through the very same Spirit (breath, word)

We have so much to be thankful for.

Darren
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