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Our Path and God's Sovereignty
YellowStone:
To anyone who is interested, I received a wonderful response from Ray.
I post it below, along with my thankyou note back to him. I think he thinks I am demented, but I could not be happier. :) :)
Oh Ray, :)
I do not only believe, but I ALSO KNOW that God is Sovereign and that man does NOT have a Free Will :)
You actually answered my question (and to this I am VERY grateful)
You state:
By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
Ray this is all I wanted to know. I am so glad that you say that we are more than CD's :)
That we can "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., because man is capable of all these things.
I do apologize for causing you any grief, but please know that I have wrestled for a very long time on this very subject and your words echo the very words given me by God, exactly!!!
You have made my day my dear brother. We are on the same page. :)
WOW!! I'm more than a CD, WhooHoo!! :)
You have lifted such a huge weight off of my shoulders, thanks be to God.
Love,
Darren
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Darren:
I'm sorry, Darren, but your arguments are too superficial to even debate. By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. And I have 120 pages of Scriptural explanations of this on my site: "The Myth of Free Will Exposed." I know that you don't "approve" of God being Soverign, and you don't "approve" of man not having a free will, but that's just the way it is, and you will have to live with it.
God be with you,
Ray
PS Darren, dominos do not have minds, and emotions, and creativity!! Your analogies are foolish. :) :) :) I love that
MG:
I can remember sitting in the Pastor's office weeping in pain from all the damage in my life. He proceeded to tell me that Satan had caused all of it. This caused me even more pain and my question to the Pastor was why did my Father in heaven just sit there and let Satan torture me? The Pastor didn't have an answer. Then a few years ago when I learned of my children's abuse I was in despair. I worked for years raising my children making sure they had all the love and hugs and safety they ever needed so they didn't ever have to experience the pain that I experienced. I used to pray for them every night. I prayed that God would protect them from the evil one. Jesus prayed that for us so I thought it would be a good prayer for them too.
I felt totally betrayed by God when a horrible act of evil caused all that pain to my children. Once again I was angry that God just sat there and let that happen. I felt robbed of all the effort I put in to keep my children loved and safe. What kind of loving Father sits back and leaves their children unprotected?
Then I found this site. Ray said that God created and causes evil. Yay! It all made sense then. God did not sit back and watch us go through so much torture. He caused it. He is still on the throne. He is still in control. He still loves me. HIS hand brought this chastisement and discipline and long, long suffering. I am able to tell my grandson that he is one of God's favorites and God has brought long suffering into his life because he is being molded into the person that God wants him to be.
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
I do not rejoice in my suffering yet, but I can look back and feel gratitude that God dragged me here through suffering. We are so blessed that we even understand enough to be here discussing these things. Some of these threads trigger pain. Some trigger anger. I feel like my old black sheep self here too sometimes. I know I'm different. Knowing that others suffer too brings comfort, strength, and hope.
Thanks to all of you who keep posting.
MG:
Sorry Darren. I posted before reading your post.
I'm glad you found your answer.
brothertoall:
This thread has been such a blessing to me! Thanks to all of you for your responses and this makes me very happy that a subject that could have gone amuck has been done in peace and understanding,love and patient and that just makes my heart leap.
Darren what a wonderful answer from Ray and it has brought much understanding.
Love to you all,
bobby
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello MG
You shared :
I can remember sitting in the Pastor's office weeping in pain from all the damage in my life. He proceeded to tell me that Satan had caused all of it…..
What a revelation that a seemingly innocent assumption that Satan is the cause of evil can so easily mis-lead us. The Pastor who could say, teach or even believe that Satan has power to be the cause of anything was for me, to teach that Satan has the rank, status and power of God the Father. What a lie you were told…”that Satan had caused all of it…this was a lie from the pit of deception! Little wonder this caused you so much pain and suffering!
From your posts I see that you know that God alone is the cause of everything. He is the source of everything. How many can see that to teach that Satan is an independent force who is working against God not for God is to introduce the error that God and Satan are equal opponents as in God is good and Satan is evil and the battle is on. This is not true. It is a lie that unfortunately is easy to swallow. This heresy begins with the simple plausible sounding half truth that “Satan caused all of it….” That sounds innocent and pious enough but agreement acquired for that teaching makes it easier to then accept the higher heresy every Sunday that Satan is winning, is going to win and already has won most of mankind earmarked for hell. Once under this illusion it becomes easier for fear tactics to coerce and Lord it over stunned souls being mis-lead into deeper errors and more false teaching alliances and agreements with Mystery Babylonian teachings. What a miserable picture!
Few have been given the understanding and the belief and the ears and eyes to know that a battle of wills actually does not exist. Spirits exist. Yes. We do not battle against flesh and blood but against powers, principalities and wickedness in high places, yes. But free wills. No. Behold God is One. Not only do we not have uncaused free will but Satan also does not have uncaused free will or free choice either! God alone is operating all and Satan works for God.
For me, your experience of being in the Pastors office was to put you directly into contact and experience with dogma and false teaching, traditions and customs of man to show you and us through you, how the word of God (not that the word of God but HOW the word of God ) is being made void through erroneous beliefs and false teachings. Not only do errors in belief lead to more errors, it paves a path of pain and sorrow for those upon this twisted path who may be in search for the truth. How many others are believing that Satan is in control against God’s will and plan and purpose and that Satan gets to win in the end and are feeling gutted, empty, hopeless, depressed and don’t know why they can cry for days, weeks months and years until it is just a way of life for them?…. How many are bound by ropes of silence, fear and timidity knowing that to ask questions is to bring oneself under penalty of being rejected, shunned, ostracised, persecuted, disapproved and looked down upon?
The next step down this slippery pain driven path of error could have been to so easily cause you to accuse God of complacency, error, injustice and rank evil! This did not happen for me but I have seen it happen to others. What happened for me is that I just became numb. Punch drunk. I became like a vegetable in a coma unable to know anything and only able to see and understand nothing except my pain which made less sense to me because I could not see where it was from or why it was there in me or why I felt without defence. I was without defence! I did not know it though because I was not set free. I was bound, a prisoner and snarled up in my own self-seeking, self-will.
I see it now! Not knowing then that the next bend in this evil crooked path would be to transfer responsibility from God to me I remained brain dead as the higher heresy went right over my head and heart while it impaled me on a stake for my soul that made void the power of God’s word, divested God of His responsibility, gave me free uncaused will and if it had been in God’s plan for me, would have sealed as with a hot iron my very conscience!….and I would have still been without defence because…
It is all about God who calls and chooses who HE wills according to HIS plan and purpose and in HIS perfect timing because HE is operating all according to His plan…..
Little wonder scriptures tell us that the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord....not fear per se, but understanding His Sovereignty! ;D don't you think! :D
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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