Our Path and God's Sovereignty

[Prosizz]

Darren,

There was a discussion recently initiated by Arcturus on the subject: Relative vs Aboslute. I beleive a revisit to that may help us a bit in coming to term with this posting.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2319.0.html

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Very good post.
The story of Nebuchadnezzar,
was a really good application, for no free will.
You have brought some very compelling scripture out,
I really like this one in Proverbs.

Pro 3:26 For the Lord shall be your confidence....

MG,  
God has given you a great witness of Him,
after all you have been through, your example of praising God is an inspiration.
You and your family are in my prayers.

Hi Darren,
I will keep finding excerpts of Ray's for you, if it is helping.
I would rather use his articles,
because he has spent so much time researching and writing them up.
He has so much info. availible and much more knowledge on these things then I.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -------------------------------------------

If people could only see that God is not a carnal-minded human as themselves. He is GOD -- The Great Creator, Sustainer, and Saviour of all -- GOD! God has a plan, a procedure, and a purpose for this creation. Precious few have even a basic understanding of what it is. Nothing in creation is out of control from God's perspective. Nothing ever surprises God or catches Him off guard. God does not view the activity of His creation from His celestial vantage point unaware of what people will do next. God knows all in advance. God doesn't just know what "will" happen in the future, He causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and nothing can be different from what God says MUST BE.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God's responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond" Man is not running God's creation, God is. How can any doubt it?

We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

People freely admit that God knows every sparrow that falls, the individual names of one hundred billion billion stars, and the number of hairs on five and one half billion people's head at any given second of the day, but that He is, nonetheless, just not concerned with the smaller details of your life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Kat, my dear sister.

Never sell yourself short for you too are an inspiration to me.

I read your post from Ray, (posted below) and truth to tell, I have no problem with any of it. God is all knowing, iis the Alpha and the Omega. Perhaps I am discovering what I already knew.

I will continue to pray and meditate on this subject and I thank God for all of you for keeping this thread so loving and fruitful.

May God continue to draw you all close, always.

Love to each of you,

Darren


http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -------------------------------------------

If people could only see that God is not a carnal-minded human as themselves. He is GOD -- The Great Creator, Sustainer, and Saviour of all -- GOD! God has a plan, a procedure, and a purpose for this creation. Precious few have even a basic understanding of what it is. Nothing in creation is out of control from God's perspective. Nothing ever surprises God or catches Him off guard. God does not view the activity of His creation from His celestial vantage point unaware of what people will do next. God knows all in advance. God doesn't just know what "will" happen in the future, He causes all that will happen in the future. God IS the future. God is the Alpha and the Omega -- He IS the beginning; He IS the end, and nothing can be different from what God says MUST BE.

We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever.  Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).

Does this also include EVIL?

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

There are many many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state. I cannot, after all this time, get the images of the Twin Towers collapsing on thousands of people, out of my mind. Or maybe even worse, the men, women and children in the four planes that knew they were destined to a violent disintegration in fire! I get teary-eyed every time I think of it. It is extremely traumatic to contemplate. And now another shuttle disaster! One at the hands of evil terrorists; the other an accident, fate, providence? But what is gained by trying to take all of these things out of the realm of God's responsibility? God and God only has the "ability-to-respond" Man is not running God's creation, God is. How can any doubt it?

We all have our own personal financial, health, social, mental, and spiritual trials in addition to thousands of other problems in our home, community, state, nation and world which can easily overwhelm us if we are not well grounded. Do we think all these things just invented themselves and brought themselves into existence? I tell you No; these are all the design of an all-wise God.

People freely admit that God knows every sparrow that falls, the individual names of one hundred billion billion stars, and the number of hairs on five and one half billion people's head at any given second of the day, but that He is, nonetheless, just not concerned with the smaller details of your life.

[brothertoall]

Well I read everything and for me when I think on this very subject it just blows my mind and smoke starts coming out of my ears. One of these days I am afraid if I think to long on that I am going to blow a circuit board. It's the only one I have left up there too so I have to be careful!

Darren I always try to think of it this way. I am thankful He is in control of everything in and about me.Good or not so good.

No earth shattering revelation in my post but it is much easier for me to know that it is all Him. Never ever thought or knew that just a little over a year ago. Knowing that He is in control takes a lot of stress off me and is comforting in a strange sorta way.

Love to you all and some real good stuff here.

bobby

[YellowStone]

Bobby,

That God is "all in all" and that this is how he works is truly a blessing that cannot be ignored or stepped away from once discovered.

1Cr 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

I really do not want to to carry on with this discussion to much longer as there is such a very fine line between the two debated sides that I find each will believe what God leads them to believe.

The Holy Scriptures are so full of insights and there is always a new discovery on almost every page.

Here is perhaps a perfect example of whose words come out of my mouth at any given time.

1Cr 12:3 
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Okay, I will admit it. I have used Jesus's name in vain before and clearly by Pauls words above, I was no speaking by the SPIRIT of GOD. Which of course begs the question, by whom was I speaking?
Paul answers this in his letter to the Romans:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

If the man with a carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, then surely he is not speaking by the Spirit of God.

James speaks of the tounge:

Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Why is it evil, because it is at enmity with God. (Rom 8:7)

Does anyone support the notion that Paul was/is mistaken that the Spirit of God DOES INDEED cause some to speak accursedly of Christ?

Restating the words of Paul: "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Dare I suggest that this proves that although God allows such talk, even knows that such talk will occur, does not actually force such words to be said?

Perhaps this argument is nullified if one considers that when God worketh all in all, it also includes Satan.

I cannot and will not argue that one, for it is above my head.

Love to you Bobby,

Darren

[YellowStone]

To anyone who is interested, I received a wonderful response from Ray.

I post it below, along with my thankyou note back to him. I think he thinks I am demented, but I could not be happier. 



Oh Ray, 

I do not only believe, but I ALSO KNOW that God is Sovereign and that man does NOT have a Free Will 

You actually answered my question (and to this I am VERY grateful)

You state:
By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS.
Ray this is all I wanted to know. I am so glad that you say that we are more than CD's

That we can "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., because man is capable of all these things.

I do apologize for causing you any grief, but please know that I have wrestled for a very long time on this very subject and your words echo the very words given me by God, exactly!!!

You have made my day my dear brother. We are on the same page.

WOW!! I'm more than a CD, WhooHoo!! 

You have lifted such a huge weight off of my shoulders, thanks be to God.

Love,
Darren


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Darren:
I'm sorry, Darren, but your arguments are too superficial to even debate. By taking away man's non-existent phantom "free will," we do not reduce him down to a CD, so it is just foolish to talk in such terms. CD don't "learn," or have "emotions," or "love," or "think," or "create," etc., etc., etc. Man is capable of all of these things, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE A FREE WILL, and GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN AND MUST HAPPEN BEFORE IT HAPPENS. And I have 120 pages of Scriptural explanations of this on my site: "The Myth of Free Will Exposed."  I know that you don't "approve" of God being Soverign, and you don't "approve" of man not having a free will, but that's just the way it is, and you will have to live with it.
God be with you,
Ray

PS  Darren, dominos do not have minds, and emotions, and creativity!!  Your analogies are foolish.    I love that

[MG]

I can remember sitting in the Pastor's office weeping in pain from all the damage in my life. He proceeded to tell me that Satan had caused all of it. This caused me even more pain and my question to the Pastor was why did my Father in heaven just sit there and let Satan torture me? The Pastor didn't have an answer. Then a few years ago when I learned of my children's abuse I was in despair. I worked for years raising my children making sure they had all the love and hugs and safety they ever needed so they didn't ever have to experience the pain that I experienced. I used to pray for them every night. I prayed that God would  protect them from the evil one. Jesus prayed that for us so I thought it would be a good prayer for them too.

I felt totally betrayed by God when a horrible act of evil caused all that pain to my children. Once again I was angry that God just sat there and let that happen. I felt robbed of all the effort I put in to keep my children loved and safe. What kind of loving Father sits back and leaves their children unprotected?

Then I found this site. Ray said that God created and causes evil. Yay! It all made sense then. God did not sit back and watch us go through so much torture. He caused it. He is still on the throne. He is still in control. He still loves me. HIS hand brought this chastisement and discipline and long, long suffering. I am able to tell my grandson that he is one of God's favorites and God has brought long suffering into his life because he is being molded into the person that God wants him to be.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.


I do not rejoice in my suffering yet, but I can look back and feel gratitude that God dragged me here through suffering. We are so blessed that we even understand enough to be here discussing these things. Some of these threads trigger pain. Some trigger anger. I feel like my old black sheep self here too sometimes. I know I'm different. Knowing that others suffer too brings comfort, strength, and hope.

Thanks to all of you who keep posting.

[MG]

Sorry Darren. I posted before reading your post.

I'm glad you found your answer.

[brothertoall]

This thread has been such a blessing to me! Thanks to all of you for your responses and this makes me very happy that a subject that could have gone amuck has been done in peace and understanding,love and patient and that just makes my heart leap.

Darren what a wonderful answer from Ray and it has brought much understanding.

Love to you all,

bobby

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello MG

You shared :


I can remember sitting in the Pastor's office weeping in pain from all the damage in my life. He proceeded to tell me that Satan had caused all of it.....



What a revelation that a seemingly innocent assumption that Satan is the cause of evil can so easily mis-lead us. The Pastor who could say, teach or even believe that Satan has power to be the cause of anything was for me,  to teach that Satan has the rank, status and  power of God the Father. What a lie you were told..."that Satan had caused all of it...this was a lie from the pit of deception! Little wonder this caused you so much pain and suffering!

From your posts I see that you know that God alone is the cause of everything. He is the source of everything. How many can see that to teach that Satan is an independent force who is working against God not for God is to introduce the error that  God and Satan are equal opponents as in God is good and Satan is evil and the battle is on.  This is not true. It is a lie that unfortunately is easy to swallow.  This  heresy  begins with the simple plausible sounding half truth that  "Satan caused all of it...."  That sounds innocent and pious enough but  agreement  acquired for that teaching makes  it  easier to then accept  the higher heresy every Sunday  that Satan is winning, is going to win and already has won most of mankind  earmarked for hell. Once under this illusion it becomes easier for  fear tactics to coerce and Lord it over  stunned souls being mis-lead into deeper errors and more  false teaching alliances and agreements with  Mystery Babylonian teachings. What a miserable picture!

Few have been given the understanding and the belief and the ears and eyes to know that a battle of wills actually does not exist. Spirits exist. Yes. We do not battle against flesh and blood but against powers, principalities and wickedness in high places, yes. But free wills. No. Behold God is One.  Not only do we not have uncaused free will but Satan also does not have uncaused free will or free choice either!  God alone is operating all and Satan works for God.

For me, your experience of being in the Pastors office was to put you directly into contact and experience with dogma and false teaching, traditions and customs of man to show you and us through you, how the word of God (not that the word of God but HOW the word of God ) is being made void through erroneous beliefs and false teachings. Not only do errors in belief lead to more errors, it paves a path of pain and sorrow for those upon this twisted path who may be in search for the truth. How many others are believing that Satan is in control against God's will and plan and purpose and that Satan gets to win in the end and are feeling gutted, empty, hopeless,  depressed and don't know why they can cry for days, weeks months and years until it is just a way of life for them?.... How many are bound by ropes of silence, fear and timidity knowing that to ask questions is to bring oneself  under penalty of being rejected, shunned, ostracised, persecuted, disapproved and looked down upon?

The next step down this slippery pain driven path of error could have been to so easily cause you to accuse God of complacency, error, injustice and rank evil!  This did not happen for me but I have seen it happen to others. What happened for me is that I just became numb. Punch drunk. I became like a vegetable in a coma unable to know anything and only able to see and understand nothing except my pain which made less sense to me because I could not see where it was from or why it was there in me or why I felt without defence. I was without defence! I did not know it though because I was not set free. I was bound, a prisoner and snarled up in my own self-seeking, self-will.

I see it now! Not knowing then that the next bend in this evil crooked path would be to transfer responsibility from God to me I remained brain dead as the higher heresy went right over my head and heart while it impaled me on a stake for my soul that made void the power of God's word,  divested God of His responsibility, gave me  free uncaused will and if it had been in God's plan for me, would have sealed as with a hot iron my very conscience!....and I would have still been without defence because...

It is all about God who calls and chooses who HE wills according to HIS plan and purpose and in HIS perfect timing because HE is operating all according to His plan.....

Little wonder scriptures tell us that the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord....not fear per se, but understanding His Sovereignty! don't you think!

Peace to you all

Arcturus

[MG]

Great Post Arcturus!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Darren

The Scriptures do not contradict.

I believe we are saying the same thing

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Andy_MI]

Hi Darren,

Good post.

The topic of Satan has been my study lately.

I'm searching for scripture that states that Satan will be saved as will all humanity.

I know of many scriptures that state that "all men will be saved", but I have yet to find one scripture or passage
stating that Satan and his demons will be saved.  I'm not finding it.

Can someone point me to two scriptures stating that all the evil angels will be saved?

Thanks,

Andy

[YellowStone]

Hi Andy,

Great question but impossible to answer

It would appear that if God granted salvation to Satan, then satan would not have only deceived the world, but God also.

Peter pretty much speaks of what happens to Satan

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Note that not even the fallen angels were spared.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Andy

This should nail it for you!....Kind of puts Satan in his place the way Ray answers this e-mail.

Enjoy!

Arcturus

Hello Brother Ray,

I read one of your email response dealing with God's supremacy.On this mail you stated that God created satan, uses satan, and that Satan too, will be saved after he has done all his dirty work. God will make him repent. Is there any Scriptural basis for this view?

I must confess that I find most of your articles very interesting and your teaching thought provoking.

Thank you so much for your effort in pumping out the truth.

God bless.

Remi
London. UK


Dear Remi:
First we must understand that Satan and his ministers reside in the heavens (Eph. 12:11, "the devil....against spiritual wickedness in high [Gk; epouranios--'celestials/heaven'] and the earth (Rev. 12:9 is not a one time occurance).

[1] "That in the dispensation of the fulnesss of times he might gather together in one ALL in the Christ, both that in the heavens and that in the earth"  (Eph. 1:10, Concordant Literal New Testament).

[2] "For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [Satan and demons] whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers [including 'principalities and powers' of Eph. 6:12] : all things were created by Him, and for Him...And, having made peace through the blood of the His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL unto Himself; by Him, I say whethe4r they be those in earth or those in heaven" (Col. 1:16 & 20).

[3] "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in HEAVEN, and those in EARTH, and those UNDER THE EARTH.  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD [I Cor. 12:3b], to the glory of God the Father" (Col. 2:9-11).

[4]  "...Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29b).

[5] "For He [Jesus] must reign till He has put ALL ENEMIES [Satan is an enemy [Matt. 13:39] under His feet...that God may be ALL in All [that includes ALL God's creatures]" (I Cor. 15:25 & 28).

Etc., etc., etc.

God be with you,
Ray

[YellowStone]

Hey Andy,

Kind of shoots down my argument.........................

Thanks Arcturus for pointing that out

Love,
Darren

[Andy_MI]

Hey Andy,

Kind of shoots down my argument.........................

Thanks Arcturus for pointing that out

Love,
Darren

Not really, The verse you quote in 2 Peter is interesting in that it's the only occurance of the word Tartaroo in the new testament.

G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

Arcturus,

Thanks for the reply.

I still don't see "salvation" applied to Satan and the fallen angels.

I  do however see the reconcilation of all of creation back to God's perfect order.

I don't think that the two words (salvation and reconcilation) have the same meaning.

I would like to start a new thread to discuss this so as not to hijack this thread.

Peace,

Andy