bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?  (Read 12524 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

iris

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2006, 04:47:11 PM »

This is a very interesting thread.

I looked up the word RECONCILIATION in "Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary". It says...
Reconciliation: Bringing together of two parties that are estranged or in dispute. Jesus Christ
is the one who brings together God and man, with Salvation as the result of the union.
Reconciliation basically means "change" or "exchange". The idea is of a change of relationship,
an exchange of antagonism for goodwill, enmity for friendship, attitudes are transformed and
hostility ceases.

Col. 1:20 KJV
(20) and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto
himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

If Jesus Christ reconciles all things in heaven and earth, then Satan would be reconciled with
Salvation as the result.

Does this sound right?

Iris
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2006, 07:05:35 PM »

Hi Andy

You wrote:

This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.

We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.


I found the following in my notes I keep on this subject about Satan.....Here is quoting an excerpt from Ray in an e-mail responce….

…I have backed up by teaching with several thousands of Scriptures in my “Lake of Fire” series…..When God gets finished with the angels (which we shall also judge), and unbelievers, and Satan, He will, of course, save them all.

The righteous will reign with Christ on earth until God becomes “All in All” (1 Cor 15:28)


In another e-mail response Ray writes….

The world has been BLINDED. God Himself has blinded the world (even though He uses messengers of evil to actually do the blinding at times). God Himself will have to REMOVE THIS BLINDNESS in order for people to see. This God will do. Have you not read where the “KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD (SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE FROM God is NOT BLINDNESS ) SHALL COVER THE EARTH AS THE WATERS COVER THE SEA!” All mankind, all the heavenly host,  and even Satan himself, will come into a knowledge of the truth – ALL WILL BE SAVED (in heaven and earth.)

Unquote……

Then if you read Ezek 18 : 32  For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn, be converted and live!

Personally I do not believe God will use annihilation of anyone or any spirit being. I believe He is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan. He transformed a man called Paul and changed his name to Saul. Is Gods power only able to convert a man and not a spirit? Does Gods power have a limit? And thereafter He has to annihilate the enemy because He can not subdue, convert, convict of sin judgment and righteousness?

John 16 : 11…the ruler, evil genius, prince of this world Satan is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.

The above has helped me to really get a hold on just how Sovereign our God really is! He is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL! and I get a kick out of that! Hope you do too! :D

Peace to you

Arcturus   :)
Logged

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2006, 08:36:05 PM »

Hello Chris R

As I understand this so far....some are being judged now and some will be raised to judgment at the White Throne.

Rev20 : 6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but theyshall be ministers of God and Christ and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

Does this mean for adults only? ???

Are you saying that babies will be raised to the White Throne Judgement? ???

If so then I have to re-think...again!....

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Hello Arcturus,

ALL will be judged, Were is it written differently? 

 Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"Every man is every man" it is not every man except a few.


 Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


 Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What about those that; ARE FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?..Did they receive judgment? of course they did! if not how is it that they received a reward?...

   It is true that Judgment must begin at the house of God, but because judgment begins, says nothing of its final outcome. Else why does Christ say to those who endure to the END will not be hurt of the second death?

And if these "endure" to the end, how is it that you know?...because you are Judged

Judgment is not always a bad thing, it is in this instance, "a good thing"

hope this helps

Chris R




Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2006, 08:58:53 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

Are you suggesting that because God "is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan" then he MUST?

It would appear that according to Jesus, Satan has been already judged, something we ourselves cannot say.

Jhn 16:11
  • Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


Here is our witness:

Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13  
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14  
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15  
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

I find it interesting that not once in 1,000's of pages of Scripture is ever mentioned that Satan is saved.

WHY IS THAT?

Could it be that it is simply not that important. :)

Here's why.

Mar 12:30-31
  • 30 - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
  • 31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Do you or any other feal that our God, his Son and all of the writers of old purposefully left out the Salvation of Satan if it were important.

Please know that God's will be done  and our greatest task is to Love God with all our strength, soul and mind, and others as much as ourselves.

Just my thoughts, comments always welcome,

Love,
Darren
Logged

stego

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2006, 09:52:40 PM »

Hi Andy,
    I think in order to understand whether or not Satan and whether or not bugs and other animals are saved, we first have to understand what these beings really are as compared to us, which I would say is a very difficult task in and of itself.  For example:
  
   1.  Do bugs have the capacity to "sin"?  

I don't think so, but it's hard to know what a bug experiences without being a bug!

   2.  Do dogs have the capacity to "sin"?  

mmmmmm, while intuitively i would say bugs can't sin, i can't just straight away say that about dogs/cats.  I just don't know.  

   3.  Is Satan an actual being that experiences things, or is he just a symbol that represents the concept of "evil"?  

I do believe that scripture supports the idea that Satan and his demons are actual beings.  If it were indeed true though that Satan was not an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil, then i would agree completely with you Andy, that God's all consuming fire would of course just destroy the evil, and therefore Satan would cease to exist and God would be Righteous to do so.... but in this case Satan never really did exist as an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil.

   4.  Is it right to cause an actual being to cease to exist because of his sins, when he only sinned in the first place because God caused him to do so?  

To this I say no way!  It would not be right for God to cause us to cease to exist because we sinned, and because God is just, he provided a savior to pay the price of our sins and also the means to be cleansed of our sins.  If Satan is an actual being as we are, he is no different then us in that God caused him sin, and to be miserable because of his sin, and thus God must provide Satan  a way to come out of his sins or else he has been cruel to Satan, and is thus not 100% righteous.

Andy you said:
    
Quote
Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.

I think we must understand that God's all consuming fire consumes character traits, not actual people/beings.  So it is true that there is nothing about Satan's character that is worth saving, but Satan himself is indeed worth saving, just as is every other living creature.  All Satan does is sin, but he only does this because God caused him to for his own good purpose, so Satan is actually an extremely important contributor to our happiness in the grand scheme of things.

As far as the deffinition of reconciliation to God vs. salvation, i would agree that the two concepts do not actually mean the same thing.  BUT i would also say that you cannot have one without the other!  Any sinning being can only be reconciled to God by being saved from his sins!  Like i said before, i don't know that bugs/dogs/cats are sinning beings, so i don't know if this applies to them (thus maybe they can be reconciled to God without salvation, because they have no sins to be saved from).  But Satan most certainly sins, and thus must be saved to be reconciled (brought to peace) with God.  You also mentioned rocks being saved being a rediculous idea, and of course it is, because they are not alive.  Trees too, because they surely cannot sin.  

You stated:
Quote
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.

We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.

I don't wanna do this, so here are the supporting scriptures for what i have said here:

1.  The scriputre/s  that say God is 100% perfect, soverign, righteous and good.
2.  Mat 25:41 CLV (41)  Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
3.  The scriputre/s that say God is the cause/creator of both good and evil, and that he made them both for his good purpose.
4.  The scriputre that says God is Love, and the one that says he loves his enemies.  (God hates what Satan does, but loves Satan himself!)

If there is any need for me to find the specific scriptures i described above, i can do so.

Sean
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2006, 10:20:23 PM »


Hi Darren,

I thought i would mention that the scripture in Isaiah 14 are not talking about Satan at all.
Here is an excerpt from Ray's article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------

ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES IN ALL CHRISTENDOM

("How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer")

Theologians have been teaching for centuries now that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us a perfect explanation of how a perfect Lucifer changed himself into Lucifer the Devil.

First Isaiah 14. To whom is God addressing Himself in these verses we quoted above?

"That you shall take up this proverb against the KING OF BABYLON..." (Ver. 4)

God is speaking of and to and about, "the King of Babylon," not Lucifer, not Satan, not a cherub. And God tells us the end of this man’s reign:

"Your pomp is brought down to the grave [Satan never died or was put in a grave], and the noise of your viols [harps or lutes]: the worm [or maggots] is spread under you [can maggots eat a spirit body], and the worms cover you" (Ver. 11).

But is not this "Lucifer" of verse 14 not Satan the Devil?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The scripture is a mystery.
But it plainly states "to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Eph 1:7  In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8  which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9  making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10  as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Satan is one of the all, this is just comon sense that it means things with the mind to understand who Christ is, and not dumb animals.

Chris, in Rev.20:13 ...And each one of them was judged according to their works.

He must have works, and new born babies do not have works.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat




« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 08:47:15 PM by Kat »
Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2006, 09:18:13 AM »

Kat,

I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.

Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.

Isa 14:6-15
  • v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth. 
  • v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
  • v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
  • v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
  • v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
  • v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
  • v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
  • v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  • v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
  • v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?

Love to you,

Darren


« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 09:22:42 AM by YellowStone »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2006, 10:20:21 AM »


Hi Darren,

I see your point.
That is a good observation.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Logged

sansmile

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 312
  • my beautiful grandchildren
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2006, 10:30:51 AM »

Hi all,

 The KIng of babylon was used by satan, tempted by him. That doesn't mean he "was " satan.

Ther is no witness to the scripture

((Isa 14:12)  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!That confirms Satan was called Lucifer.

With regard to the bugs and mosquitos etc being reconciled...............bugs and mosquitos DONT have logic....they don't sin.


Satan had enough logic to twist scriptiure and lie!


(Gen 3:1)  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Joh 8:44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Sansmile (sandie)
 
Logged
Walk in the Spirit

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2006, 12:36:02 PM »

Hello everyone,

I have perused this thread and I think one thing (forgive me if I missed someone else stating this) that everyone is forgetting that when it is written about being "saved" this is speaking of the "elect" those of the called who are being judged now, or during their present life. Are not the elect to judge angels?

All will eventually be saved, after the WTJ and after going through the LOF (which is Christ and the elect). It helps to keep things in perspective when we see the bible (a giant parable) as being primarily for the benefit of His chosen, it is not given to the multitude(s).

It is a shame that due to a lack of patience and longsuffering that strife replaced edification.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe   
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2006, 12:44:16 PM »

Kat,

I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.

Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.

Isa 14:6-15
  • v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth. 
  • v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
  • v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
  • v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
  • v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
  • v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
  • v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
  • v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  • v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
  • v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?

Love to you,

Darren




Hi Darren,

I see the spiritual message as all men at some point in time exalting the "beast within" above God.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2006, 04:13:10 PM »


Hello Chris R

This conversation has led me to perceive that judgement is in fact on a gradient of intensity. I did not see that before and it has blessed me to see it now. In fact the scripture that came up for me I quoted earlier, was the first to be matched to two others in the NT.

The key that started this perception was Kats quip that Satan first in last out of the LOF. I enjoyed that comment and it continued to inspire deeper understanding. After this scripture came to my mind two others followed from the NT.

Isaiah 28 :26 – 29 And when he trains each of them correctly, for his God instructs him correctly and teaches him. 27 For dill is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten off with a staff, and cumin with a rod ,by hand, 28. Does one crush bread grain? No, he does not thresh it continuously. ( Here this verse for me torpedoes the fallacy and heresy of endless punishment!) But when he has driven his cartwheel and his horses over it, he scatters it, tossing it up to the wind without having crushed it. 29 This also comes from the Lord of hosts. Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom and effectual working.

These are the two from the NT that have helped me to see that Judgment is on a gradient of intensity. Stonger for some and less intense for others depending on the depth of waywardness, hardness of heart and complilance to Christliness.

Matt 13 : 8  The parable of the sower sowing seeds on the way side, stony places, seeds that had no roots, thorny and good ground, and 
Matt 20: 1 The parable of the worker in the vineyard with the owner hiring workmen  third sixth ninth and eleventh hour and paying the same wages.

I may be way off base here and this might have an entirely different meaning but for me in regard to the LOF and Judgment I see this as meaning that some will suffer harsh correction and chastisement eg Adolph Hitler etc and others will be taught and trained into the way of the Lord which will feel far less corrective and more administrative in effect like in the training of children who's lives were cut off before they could know Christ.

I had no idea that babies would go to the LOF. I see it now and appreciate the deeper clarification and awareness that knowledge of Christ will be received differently according to the degree of error in each person. People who love wickedness will hate correction! ;D

I have for years wondered at how this would work and now I can say I am blessed abundantly to now have the revelation! Judgment is OKAY. It is GRACE! I see it now!

What also comes to mind is that Brimstone is not so bad either! :D

I appreciate your explanation and your effort to bring to me an edifying response :)

Do you have any comment on the three scriptures that I think could possibly be a match?

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2006, 04:31:17 PM »

Luke 12 (King James Version)

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2006, 04:38:58 PM »

Goose bumps Amen! ;D

........."and again I say rejoice ".....;D

AMEN!
Logged

worm

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2006, 08:34:52 AM »

hi guys,
sorry for jumping in so late but here goes anyway...

the WhiteThrone judgement is not to send everyone to the LOF, but to judge those who was not risen in the first resurrection, according to their works:

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

to my understanding, the Church (minus the overcomers) and all who have done Godly deeds their whole life and who were not necessarily Christians or have heard his Word (those sheep from the "other flocks" Jesus referred to) would receive their reward of immortality at this judgement.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2006, 10:36:48 AM »


Hi worm,

Everyone goes through the fire, for the elect it is now, for all the rest of mankind it is the Lake of fire.
Mar 9:49  For everyone will be salted with fire.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

All are in the Lake of fire, the elect are the fire, and the rest of mankind will be cast in it.

1Co 3:13  each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
1Co 3:14  If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

There is no literal lake, and there is no literal fire.
Jesus Christ and His Body of saints are the Lake of judging, purifying and consuming spiritual fire.

1Co 6:2  Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Heb 12:29  for also, "Our God is a consuming fire."

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Psa 104:4  He makes his messengers winds, His ministers a flaming fire.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 09:58:09 PM by Kat »
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2006, 10:56:27 AM »



Hi Marie and Kat

This is what I see from where I am standing…..Marie

You wrote : Take a toddler for example. Even at the tender age of 1 or 2, the toddler is concerned ONLY for themselves. It is me, me, me. This is the very sinful nature we are born with. Temper tantrums are their way of expressing themselves for not getting their selfish desires. They are sinning even at this young age, because so many times they KNOW what they shouldn't be doing, but they keep doing it to see how far they can get away with fulfilling their own fleshly lusts - (even though this lust seems innocent enough to us compared to the fleshly lusts of adults). Did we ever have to teach a child to  misbehave?  No, they do a fine job on their own.

Your comment deepens my insight and understanding that babies will be going in to the lake of fire which for me is symbolic for correction, edification and encouragement into the knowledge of Christ. Not so bad!

Proverbs 22 : 6 Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.

I understand what you have shared with Kat regarding your indignation against the Church teachings on accountability. In the Catholic Church they have confirmation rites, and in the Jewish traditions they have Bar mitzvah celebrations into adulthood and so called “accountability”. I have come to perceive that once we believe in our own free will (which doesn’t exist) then we will have to give account for this before God. As you illustrate Marie, little babies start life acting out the attitude that everything must revolve around them or else tantrums follow. If this self centred attitude is the basis for our beliefs then, as the scriptures declare, we will have to explain and account before God for our own arrogance, self willed blindness and folly and for every idle word. Matt 12 : 36 …every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

As I understand this, those who recognize that God is Sovereign and that no one has uncaused choice, feelings, thoughts, circumstances or actions, then ( for me,)  it is those with this awareness who  will be the ones who are more likely to be undergoing judgment now. They are more likely to gauge their spiritual strength or weakness against their levels of dependence on God and their levels of faith in His wisdom through whatever circumstances God causes them to walk through. For them trials, tribulations and circumstances are but  tests of  faith and dependence and trust of Christ in God drawing them into deeper reliance on Christ which through Judgment moves them further away from self reliance, self importance or self esteem into deeper sharing the cross with Christ.

By contrast, others who are not in the Judgment NOW, will be trying to impress God, living by the law, trying to be Godly self-approved self-appointed helpers of God. (These helpers, call themselves servants of God which veils their eyes from the fact that they actually really think and believe that they have the power of choice to please or serve God and they teach and lead others into the same heresy. The age or time of accountability meaning for them that it is all up to their choices and their free will as clocked in by man made traditions and customs that void the word of God for those who  neither know the Scriptures or the power of God.  Blind leading the blind.) Non have power and non have uncaused choice and it is these under illusion who will be measuring themselves and others in pious comparison against their own good deeds, how much they give to charity, how big their works are, how large their Church is or how wide their support is in TBN land, New York best sellers book lists,  and they will show off their good deeds before men and ultimately in defiance  before God…….Pity them of whom it is written…
Matt 7 : 22 …Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name: and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works:
Rev 2 : 2…I know thy works
Rev  2 : 9…I know thy works
Rev  2 : 13 I know thy works
Rev 2 : 19 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 1 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 8 I know thy works
Rev 3 : 15 I know thy works
God knows EVERYTHING.  The message. Get over it …overcome self, get over works, overcome self-will, self-approval self-justification, self- importance, self-rationalization self-aggrandizement, self self self self…..and to over come self esteem, for me,  the worlds most insidious seductive and heinous  anti Christ  perversion in teaching ever.
Rev… And to him who overcomes…I will give…I will give…I will give…. and He has already given HIMSELF. , and we will who are called, and we will who are chosen and we will who are judged now and we….

Chris R wrote : ALL will be judged, Were is it written differently?

So for me this all points to one thing. We are all accountable and we all begin life learning how to have a good self-esteem. We are all mistakenly lead, trained and coerced through worldly teachings to believe and experience the illusion that we have free choice etc which places our ego on the throne while displacing God and His Sovereignty in our own deluded minds. In this we all fall short by Gods design, plan purpose and intention. Only Jesus who never sinned was never accountable because He was always responsible and for me, is from the beginning Gods Son. In our beginning we are Gods weak children being trained up into spiritual strength and right standing with God. I agree with you Marie that we are called, chosen and dragged only by God in His time according to His will and plan for us individually. For me there is no age benchmark for this to happen. God can call and choose anyone, any time, any where anyhow.  No one can pre-empt God or cause God to work according to our perceived will. We line up with God’s will God doesn’t line up to our perceived mistaken free will or choice. God doesn’t change. We have to and God causes our changes.

I believe accountability comes from our, by design, spiritual weakness and is the parent of blame shifting and all the mental ills that manifest in the powerful grip of this illusion. We confuse accountability with responsibility.  We confuse free will with caused will. We confuse God with ourselves. We  experience these ills through  our own weakness in spirit and weakness of spiritual strength. Our weakness is beyond our comprehension until God takes hold of us to show us a thing or two like Bible Truths and LOF the Beast Within and the Myths of Free will revelations and trials and tribulations.
 

We all experience painful trials and tribulations. As God causes us to  begin to succumb yield and submit under HIS chastisement, training and disciplining  which is HIS work on us as He pleases to do and will, then we become broken not as in shattered but as in yielding, obedient, submissive pliable as we are broken into meekness and prepared for the knowledge that God alone is Sovereign. This knowledge takes away our wildness as we are grafted into this truth of the true vine and as we begin to feel the sap of the truth enter into our thoughts and minds changing us from our wildness wilderness mentality by conforming us into His purity of faith and dependence and trust in His responsibility for us.

 I think THE Free Will LOF teaching is THE mega disclosure of OUR times. That our eyes have read it, that our hearts have contemplated its message means for me, that we have been the ones to enter into the Holy Sanctuary of Gods mysteries, holiness and power.  It may appear on a number of pages on the internet but it is explosive in its power, it is pure in its message and it for me is from the Spirit of Christ teaching us disciples the Truth.

Accountability for me is a spoof like free will. They (for me) belong in the same stables of error and illusion. Like you say Marie….when does anyone get chosen or called of their own free choice or free will? All is of God. The times are in His hands. This is not dependent on our age, on our traditions, our Churchy confirmations or Synagogue Bar mitzvah’s or on anything of man. It is all-dependent on God. I am not saying we are not going to be judged or held accountable for our trust in free will. I am saying that as we are released from and as we let go of  the illusion that we have free-will,  our accountability will transform to conformity in Christ’s image. This is how I see it.

Ecc 3 : 1- 

To EVERYTHING there is a season, and a time for EVERY MATTER or purpose under heaven.
14 I know that whatever God does, it endures forever, nothing can be added to it nor anything taken from it. AND GOD DOES IT SO THAT MEN WILL REVERENTLY FEAR HIM REVERE AND WORSHIP HIM knowing that HE IS.

For me reverent fear can only occur as and when we receive illumination from God that reveals HIS Sovereignty to us. As we can see already, some revolt and scream heresy while hurling abuse and pious indignations like the Pharisees did in the time of Jesus when they first see this free will is their pampered god-self free will idolatry. Once exposed they will try to resist, hide, deny and even try to kill, maim, tarnish, discredit, oppose, blot out and cancel its revelation…. while some of us, blessedly embrace God as God. 

Ecc 12 : 13,14 All has been heard; the end of the matter is; Fear God, revere and worship Him, knowing that He is, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man, the full, original PURPOSE of His creation, the object of God’s providence, the root f character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to al inharmonious circumstances, and the conditions under the sun and the whole duty for every man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good or evil.



Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Logged

ned

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2006, 12:39:55 AM »

Hi Kat,
Peace to you and may we both be guided by His Spirit to teach us all things.

Hi Arcturus,
Your dedication for edification is heart-warming.
One thing you state,


 I think THE Free Will LOF teaching is THE mega disclosure of OUR times. That our eyes have read it, that our hearts have contemplated its message means for me, that we have been the ones to enter into the Holy Sanctuary of Gods mysteries, holiness and power. It may appear on a number of pages on the internet but it is explosive in its power, it is pure in its message and it for me is from the Spirit of Christ teaching us disciples the Truth.


reminded me of this verse I wanted to share with you,

Hab 2:14  For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

20 years ago I could have never imagined the information that I'd be able to find at the click of a mouse. Ray's site is obviously ordained by God...a means (if even a trifle) to bring knowledge of Him to the earth.

Which could bring up another discussion.  There is receiving knowledge, but will all who receive this knowledge receive the Spirit?

Love,
Marie
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2006, 01:59:22 AM »

Hi Marie

Yes I agree with your comment for discussion : Which could bring up another discussion.  There is receiving knowledge, but will all who receive this knowledge receive the Spirit?

What do you think? I see this is two parts. Present and Future.

THE PRESENT:

What comes to mind for me is Judas. He knew Jesus Christ. He was called but failed in his faith in the final analysis. The chosen will be failthful to the end. Faithful to what they know and to WHO they know. Look at Peter. Jesus prayed that His faith endure and after his conversion.....after his conversion....

Non were converted until Penticost as I understand this. So yes. I agree with you. Knowledge is insufficient. Conversion is necessary which for me means that Christ is the centre not self. When Christ is on the throne of our being, then the true fruit of His Spirit manifests not in outward show as some in Mystery Babylon would pretend to aquire,  but in true inward unfolding and maturation. I also believe that we can have the intellectual knowledge without the experience of Christ. We can know in the mind and have the revelations given to us through the discernments given by the Holy Spirit and we can still backslide! For me, my aliveness in soul body and spirit is all due to His presence. Should He withdraw in any area of my heart, mind, body or Spirit, I will wilt and die. He is my goodness, He is my clear thinking, He brings the scriptures to my mind to discuss and contemplate and learn. He is my everything that is true, worthy of reverance, honourable and seemly, justice, it is He who is pure, lovely and loveable, kind and gracious and it is He who is virtue and excellence and as said in the Scriputures Phil 4 : 8 Think on thes things....Whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatso'ever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any priase, think on these things.

Of my self I can offer nothing honest, good or worthy. Of yourself neither can you or anyone! Self has to be overcome, subdued and put under foot. When this is fully grasped and appropriated in mind and heart....does this not bring in its wake the apprehension, the hope and the expectation of the reality that there will come for us a true knowledge of Christ's Glory? He will not share His glory with flesh but as we are disenguaged with our selves and conformed into His image does this not bring with it a unique experience of intimacy with Him and forknowledge of HIS Glory to come upon the earth finally? Is it not this experience that sets us apart and makes the world grow strangely dim while we become all the more perculiar to those who have still worldly eyes and worldly comprehension? This is not a pretigue status but a privilage of meekness under the awesome rule and Sovereignty of God Himself! No pride of place in this perception or foothold for Satan can be present here as is often the case in pretended election! :o

We need, I need Christ to hold us/me steady to the end.  We/I need God to give us/me to Christ as His own. We/I can not do this of our/my selves or of our/my purest intentions becasue we/I do not choose Christ but are chosen by Him. There is comfort in that what He starts He will finish because He is the Author and finisher of our Faith. For me there is comfort in that.  8)

As for taking our faith or right standing with God for granted...I am ever aware that if God wants to put my faith to the test, He can put it to the test beyond which it could stand. He alone makes me stand. Just because I know He will not put me through more than I can withstand and that He will always provide an escape into refuge with Him, does not mean I do not recall the many many times I have experienced my weakness, failure and liability to temptations. This balance brings clarity of the supreme dependence I have in Christ. As He said....without Him we are and can do nothing. We can not even know anything much less drink of His living waters of His Spirit of Truth, Faith, Sovereignty and Holiness.

THE FUTURE

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

What God says will happen, WILL HAPPEN. As this is prophesied in the Scripture, I believe that in the day that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea, it will not be anything shabby. For me, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will bring with it all the blessings of right knowledge, right understanding and righteousness in the end where all opposition and all doubts as to who the Lord is, will be put under His feet. :D

I believe others here will also have certain scriptures and the thoughts arise in their hearts and minds that touch on this event to come as prophesied, who can also share what they see from where they are standing for our encouragement and edification.

Peace to you.

Arcturus :)
Logged

UncleBeau

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2007, 06:53:55 PM »

Kat,

I fully realize what Ray states about "Lucifer," but I find it very interesting that he is holding onto the literal meaning and not the spiritual.

Am I the only one that can see the OBVIOUS connection between the "King of Babylon" and Satan.

Isa 14:6-15
  • v6 - He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth. 
  • v7 - The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.
  • v8 - Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
  • v9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
  • v10 - All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
  • v11 - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
  • v12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
  • v13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
  • v14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
  • v15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Granted Ray is correct that the literal reference of Lucifer is concerning the "King of Babylon," who then is the spiritual in reference too?

Love to you,

Darren




As far as I remember, the word "lucifer" has already been proven to be added in where the word "howl" should go. I'm not going to go into detail, but what kind of spiritual meaning are you looking for with "howl"?

-Beau
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.07 seconds with 22 queries.