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Author Topic: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?  (Read 12524 times)

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Andy_MI

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Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« on: December 01, 2006, 06:28:27 PM »

Hi everyone,

I wanted to start a new thread on this topic so as not to hijack the thread I started to post this on.

The burdon to find the truth on this matter is on my heart lately.

I know that the bible clearly tells us that "all men will be saved."

I also do not see the same promise given to  Satan and the fallen angels.

I think the answer is defining what is salvation and for whom it applies and what is reconciliation on to what and whom this applies.

It is also possible that we are not given enough information in the scripture to come to understanding in this matter.

I am curious and am seeking input on this subject, if that's ok with you all.

I would like to not have this turn into a heated debate.  I'm simply trying to get others insight into this.

Here are some quotes from the other thread where I started this quest.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Darren wrote:

Hi Andy,

Great question but impossible to answer

It would appear that if God granted salvation to Satan, then satan would not have only deceived the world, but God also.

Peter pretty much speaks of what happens to Satan

2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Note that not even the fallen angels were spared.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Darren

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arcturus wrote:

Hi Andy

This should nail it for you!....Kind of puts Satan in his place the way Ray answers this e-mail.

Enjoy!

Arcturus

Hello Brother Ray,
 
I read one of your email response dealing with God's supremacy.On this mail you stated that God created satan, uses satan, and that Satan too, will be saved after he has done all his dirty work. God will make him repent. Is there any Scriptural basis for this view?
 
I must confess that I find most of your articles very interesting and your teaching thought provoking.
 
Thank you so much for your effort in pumping out the truth.
 
God bless.
 
Remi
London. UK
 

Dear Remi:
First we must understand that Satan and his ministers reside in the heavens (Eph. 12:11, "the devil....against spiritual wickedness in high [Gk; epouranios--'celestials/heaven'] and the earth (Rev. 12:9 is not a one time occurance).
 
[1] "That in the dispensation of the fulnesss of times he might gather together in one ALL in the Christ, both that in the heavens and that in the earth"  (Eph. 1:10, Concordant Literal New Testament).
 
[2] "For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [Satan and demons] whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers [including 'principalities and powers' of Eph. 6:12] : all things were created by Him, and for Him...And, having made peace through the blood of the His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL unto Himself; by Him, I say whethe4r they be those in earth or those in heaven" (Col. 1:16 & 20).
 
[3] "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in HEAVEN, and those in EARTH, and those UNDER THE EARTH.  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD [I Cor. 12:3b], to the glory of God the Father" (Col. 2:9-11).
 
[4]  "...Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29b).
 
[5] "For He [Jesus] must reign till He has put ALL ENEMIES [Satan is an enemy [Matt. 13:39] under His feet...that God may be ALL in All [that includes ALL God's creatures]" (I Cor. 15:25 & 28).
 
Etc., etc., etc.
 
God be with you,
Ray

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy wrote:

Quote from: YellowStone on Today at 03:43:45 PM
Hey Andy,

Kind of shoots down my argument.........................

Thanks Arcturus for pointing that out

Love,
Darren


Not really, The verse you quote in 2 Peter is interesting in that it's the only occurance of the word Tartaroo in the new testament.

G5020
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o'-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

Arcturus,

Thanks for the reply.

I still don't see "salvation" applied to Satan and the fallen angels.

I  do however see the reconcilation of all of creation back to God's perfect order.

I don't think that the two words (salvation and reconcilation) have the same meaning.

I would like to start a new thread to discuss this so as not to hijack this thread.

Peace,

Andy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2006, 06:47:24 PM »

Hi Andy

For me salvation is to those in the first resurrection and reconciliation is for those in the White Throne Judgement into which Satan and all his evil assistants etc will be cast into the Lake of Fire....not for ever...but for correction...and in order to fulfill that every knee will bow....


Peace to you


Arcturus  :)
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Andy_MI

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 07:20:10 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

Thank you for your reply.

I just hope I haven't open up a can of worms by starting this thread.

I am meditating on these verses and seeking clarity from the Lord on this whole subject.

Col 1:16 KJVR
(16)  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Col 1:20 KJVR
(20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


The thing I notice about verse 20 is that "all things will be reconciled unto himself." "Whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

Is this saying that all of creation is going to be saved? I say it does not say all things whether in earth or in heaven will be saved but rather reconciled.

Here's the thing that's got me thinking about this.

If reconcilation is the same as salvation then the all things would include ALL THINGS.

That would include all the bugs, snakes, critters, bacteria, viruses, mosquitoes and lions and tigers and bears - OH MY!  ;D
(sorry, just had a wizzard of oz flash back.)

Do you see my questioning here? 

I see reconcilation is a "bringing back creation into the perfect harmony and order of our Father."

Is this accomplished by "saving all of creation?"

Just some thoughts,

Peace,

Andy
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Craig

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2006, 08:00:35 PM »

What is salvation?, what are we saved from?

Satan does not need saving, but as with all creation he needs to be reconciled to God.

Craig
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sansmile

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2006, 08:09:33 PM »

Hi all,

What i see is that God created satan as His adversary

(1Pe 5:8)  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

(Isa 45:7)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But, He created evil to bring about good:

Rom 12:21)  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.



But where satan is concerned, where does he end up.....in the lake of fire:

(Rev 20:10)  And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

along with those that didn't believe:

Rev 20:14)  And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:15)  And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."



 So, as the lake of fire is Gods cleansing fire (spirit)  then satan must be saved.  

Sansmile (sandie)





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Andy_MI

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 08:47:00 PM »

What is salvation?, what are we saved from?

Satan does not need saving, but as with all creation he needs to be reconciled to God.

Craig

Hi Craig,

I think Adam and all man kind are saved from sin and death probably among other things.

As far as Satan not needing salvation I would refer you to a letter to Ray and his reply:

Ray,

If Satan is not a falling angel were did his angels come from because this is confusing me. If God created Satan how he is (not a fallen angel) but a perfect adversary did he create a whole bunch of little messengers (angels) for him? Because we know angels can not sin cause if they could that would be contradicting wouldn't it?
[Ray Replies]
Jeremiah,

It nowhere says in the Scriptures that it is not possible for an angel to sin regardless of his rank. I believe that there is only ONE archangel. Arch means the number one and the HIGHEST. There can be only ONE of such rank. As Michael is an "archangel" and "Michael" means LIKE GOD, and as Jesus was called on occasion in the Old Testament the "Angel of the Lord," it follows that Michael the Archangel is referring to Christ.

Angels can and do sin. II Peter 2:4,
"For if God spares not SINNING MESSENGERS [angels], but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging..."
Angels need salvation just as mankind does.

Ray

Notice the last line of Ray's response.

Which brings me back to the question:

Is reconcilation and salvation the same thing?

Hi Sandie,

I wonder why it dosen't say that all the demons along with Satan are cast into the lake of fire?

And also I wonder if there will be anything left of Satan after he's thrown into the fire?

Is there anything good in Satan that will indure the fire?

Just rambling,

Andy
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Craig

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 09:59:51 PM »



Is reconcilation and salvation the same thing?


In my opinion.........No.

Craig
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sansmile

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 10:28:08 PM »

Andy,

God says:

(Isa 40:26)  Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
Evil spirits are sent by God:
(Jdg 9:23)  Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
Act 19:15)  And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?


Andy God is spiritual fire, a cleansing fire,   if there was nothing to save , why cast satan in?


Just rambling,  lol  GB

Sansmile (sandie)

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Kat

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 12:24:58 AM »

Hi Andy,

From my Webster's Intermediate dictionary.

reconcile: to cause to give in or to accept -- make content.

salvation: the saving of a person from sin -- something that saves -- the saving from danger or evil.

Satan was created as a part of this world, he is doing what he was created to do 'sin' and I believe will be saved from his sins also.

1John 3:8  He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.

John 1:29  The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Satan is a part of this world.

Quote
And also I wonder if there will be anything left of Satan after he's thrown into the fire?

Is there anything good in Satan that will indure the fire?

Mat 19:17  And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God...

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------------------------------

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], an which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The lake of fire will be a purging and cleansing of all cast in, but it will also be a teaching experience.

Those babies that died at birth, have no knowledge at all. 
What will the lake of fire do for them if not teach them of Christ and bring them to salvation.

After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also. 
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out. 
Do you think God would have created a being He could not save?

Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
v.16  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.

Well there's what I think.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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stego

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 06:10:02 AM »

Hi all,
    I think the thing we have to keep in mind here is that God is responsible for the well-being of ALL of his creation.  In order for God to be 100% good, which we know he is, he MUST make sure that ALL his creation (including Satan) does not suffer forever in their sin, otherwise God has failed to be 100% good.  His creation (including Satan) is his accomplishment (currently a work in progress) and he will not fail to make us all (including Satan) happy/joyful/content, as he greatly desires to do, as this is his glory!

Sean
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2006, 06:19:04 AM »

Hi Andy

Sandy wrote : (Rev 20:15)  And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

For me that answers your observation Andy :
I wonder why it dosen't say that all the demons along with Satan are cast into the lake of fire?

Anyone would include demons. They are the anyones not found written in the scroll of life to be cast into the lake of fire.

I agree with Craig. Reconciliation is not the same as salvation.

Heb 9 : 28 …Christ will appear a second time (to the first resurrection) not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin (as in the second resurrection White Throne Judgment) but to bring to full salvation those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.

John 5 : 28  Do not be surprised and wonder at this, for the time is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice. 29 And THEY shall come out (Who are they?)….THEY who have practiced doing good will come out to the resurrection of new life, and those (who are those?)…THOSE who have done evil will be raised (raised….not saved….raised for )…for judgment, raised to meet their sentence.

After judgment, after sentencing….then they are reconciled just like a person who is sentenced in the worlds court systems for theft. They are sentenced to jail. They serve their time and after they are released back into society they are therefore reconciled back into society. Like wise so too will the White Throne be a judgment, sentence and reconciliation.   

Kat your comment : After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also. 
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out.
   I liked that one! :D

Peace to you all

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 06:21:08 AM by Arcturus »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 06:57:45 AM »

Hi Kat

I am concerned that you seem to believe that babies will be in the White Throne Judgement second death. My concern is that to think this must surely be painful. How can such an awful thing happen to innocent babies?

John Hagee said something similar once where in he said anyone who has not recieved Christ will be popping up like popcorn on a hot stove and the babies that died will be there too and this is God's justice.!  I am paraphrasing here. I think what he said was far worse and much more horrific.

I think having heard him say this, stuck with me as grossly mis-leading and so it stood out for me when you wrote:

Those babies that died at birth, have no knowledge at all. 
What will the lake of fire do for them if not teach them of Christ and bring them to salvation.


I am NOT saying OR suggesting you have said what Hagee said.  You have got much insight into the scriptures to make me think you go along with Hagee! Hagee was talking about Hell not the second death. However, Jesus does advise us to pray that we are among the worthy to stand before Him when He comes again.
Luke 21 : 36  but take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed, weighed down with giddiness and headache and nausea of self - indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to the business of this life, and lest that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose; 35. For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth. 36. Keep awake then and watch at al times, be discreet, attentive, and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things taken together that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man

Kat do you really believe that little babies will go into the White Throne Judgment. Surely not!

I recall Ray wrote somewhere that the awful deaths the little ones suffer will be recompensed and they will be raised to new life in Christ and receive the opportunity to live their lives to the full as compensation. Suffer not the little one’s to come unto me…..Jesus said. So this makes me believe that the murdered aborted babies who’s lives are so cruelly cut off, will be blessed and called into new life in Christ when He comes again.! This for me is a much happier picture of God's love and justice.

I just could not let this one slip by thinking you were believing that the second death is the penalty for being aborted!…..

It is a happier thought to think they will be blessed abundantly with new life in Christ when He comes again. This makes for me, the horror of their deaths more bearable and it is simply this that I wanted to share with you because I care about you so I'd prefer that you look forward for them, to what lies in store for these little ones who have been chopped up while still in the womb or who have starved to death or died because of AIDS.

Just think….there will be so many little one’s!……You just have to also look at abortion stats!...........Jesus loves children! :D

I trust you shall take this post as a welcome to share in the joy of what is waiting for them.............

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Chris R

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 08:42:50 AM »

Hello all,

I believe this thread is interesting enough, Will Satan be reconciled? Yes he will, Will babies be judged...Of course! unlike what many may think,  Judgment is a GOOD thing, and ALL being judged will understand the NEED for judgment. 

Why did Christ "sting" the pharisees with this comment?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law,JUDGMENT, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Doesnt sound like Christ felt judgment was a bad thing?

After all this is Gods plan, it is not ours to question his methods.

ALL WILL BE JUDGED!  Some will be harshly judged, and some will not.

Chris R 





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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2006, 09:32:44 AM »

Hello Chris R

As I understand this so far....some are being judged now and some will be raised to judgment at the White Throne.

Rev20 : 6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but theyshall be ministers of God and Christ and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

Does this mean for adults only? ???

Are you saying that babies will be raised to the White Throne Judgement? ???

If so then I have to re-think...again!....

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 10:03:41 AM by Arcturus »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2006, 10:13:31 AM »

Hi Kat

I am pending edification on babies at White Throne and would appreciate any help

Arcturus :)
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Kat

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2006, 10:34:36 AM »


Hi Arcturus,

I understand your concern on this matter.
But let us consider these scripture.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those in the first resurrection will reign andrule, and judgment was given to them.
These are the elect that endured to the end, this is there reward.

I do not believe the WT judgment is going to be terrible for everybody cast in.
Think about John the Baptist, I do not believe he will face punishment, but taught about Christ's death and resurrection and brought to salvation, probably quickly.
Those babies will have to be taught about Christ too, not be punished, for that is the only way to receive salvation.

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 10:9  I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.

The only way to enter the kingdon of God is by salvation in Christ, which these babies and people that never heard of Christ and even the prophets of the OT, all will have to go through this teaching and receiveing of the spirit of Christ, that they may enter the kingdom.

Waht do you think about this?  Does it help with the idea that not all will be punished?

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:09:30 PM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2006, 12:35:42 PM »

Hi Kat

Thanks for the help....

I went and searched Ray’s article on the Secret Rapture. I found that God’s saints are not appointed to His wrath or indignation.

Then this scripture came to my mind.

Is 28 : 27  For dill is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin; but dill is beaten off with a staff, and cummin with a rod by hand.  28 Does one crush bread grain? No, he does not thresh it continuously. But when he has driven his cartwheel and his horses over it, he scatters it tossing it up to the wind without having crushed it. 29 This also comes form the Lord of hosts, Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom and effectual working.

Then you said quote… : After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also. 
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out. 
  I liked that one! So does this show a gradient of judgment as perhaps indicated in Isaiah 28 above do you think?


Isaiah 26 : 9 For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

That being the children who did not live to enjoy this training will receive it in the White Throne Judgment?

And

1 Tim 4 : 10 For this is GOOD and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have al men to be saved, and to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth.

Am I on the right track?

Peace to you all

Arcturus :)
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Andy_MI

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2006, 01:39:28 PM »

Getting back to the topic....

I think we need to make a distinction between the terminology of salvation and reconcilation.

Here's what Paul says:

Col 1:16 KJVR
(16)  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


God is the Creator, He did so by His own soverign will.

Notice v 20:

Col 1:20 KJVR
(20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Here Paul says that He has RECONCILED all things by the blood of His cross.
The "all things" of creation have also been "reconciled," and Paul defines this for us as: "having made PEACE."

In other words, reconcilation has to do with making "PEACE" and establishing harmony, as opposed to discord
and opposition.

Now concerning SALVATION

Here's what Paul says:

1Ti 4:10 KJVR
(10)  For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.


1Ti 2:4 KJVR
(4)  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


He says nothing about saving Satan or his demons.

Here's what Paul says about JUSTIFICATION

Rom 5:16 NKJV
(16)  And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.


He says nothing about justifying Satan and his demons.

Here's what John says about PROPITIATION

1Jo 2:2 KJVR
(2)  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


He is talking about people, the world of mankind, as distinct from us as believers.

He does not say that Christ became the propitiation for Satan and his demons.

Here's what Paul says about RESURRECTION

1Co 15:22-23 KJVR
(22)  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23)  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


The context shows clearly that he is talking about mankind.
He says nothing about resurrecting Satan and his demons.

Each of these terms has a different meaning and application, and while they are often related and apply to the same groups of people, they are not precisely the same.

Salvation has to do with one's health and well-being, which has been compromised by the death sentence upon Adam and his descendants. Justification is a legal term and has to do with a court case and how to be declared innocent in view of one's past sins. Resurrection has to do with being raised from death to life, or from mortality to immortality.

Going back to my analogy about bugs and mosquitoes and bacteria. I don't believe bugs and etc. will be saved. They will, however, be reconciled, because they are a part of God's creation. This does not mean that bugs will be justified, for we have no biblical teaching that any bug will appear before the judgment seat of Christ or before the Great White Throne. Nor will bugs be resurrected from the dead.

Maybe I'm wrong here,,, but......

 I cannot see how every mosquito and fly in history will be raised from the dead. The earth would then be thick with such creatures in the Kingdom.

The Bible never says that Satan will be saved, justified, or resurrected. It only says that the reconciliation will include things in heaven as well as on earth.

But if bugs will be reconciled, but not saved, then why must we say that Satan and his angels will be saved?  I do not believe that Satan will be "saved."

Even though there are people who do not even believe in a "personal devil" but equate it to the carnal mind. It would still
be revelant to this because the carnal mind will not be saved, but replaced with the mind of Christ, thus reconciling all things. When the mind of man is reconciled, there will be peace and harmony between God and man.

Paul chooses his words carefully by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

1Co 15:27 KJVR
(27)  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


 To reconcile creation means to bring creation into subjection to the rule of Christ, because all things [GK ta panta, "the all"] must be put under His feet. Peace will then be restored, not because He rules by fear forcing all to worship Him, but because all will submit themselves by Love and by full agreement.

So because reconciliation applies to all creation, it cannot feasibly "save" every creature that ever lived, nor justify every rock and tree, nor resurrect every mosquito. It sounds obsurd to me.

What I'm seeing is that God will treat angels differently.

Mat 25:41 CLV
(41)  Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."


Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.

To consume is to eat or assimilate. God can "eat" in this sense without violating His character. For this reason, God told the disciples that if they drank any poison, it would not hurt them, and if a serpent bit them, it would do them no harm

Mar 16:18 KJVR
(18)  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Where did this ability come from? Obviously, from God, because as a consuming fire, He too is able to consume "the flesh" along with Satan and his angels without violating His sanctity. All vice will simply be assimilated by the all-consuming fire of God.

This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.

We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.

Peace,

Andy



 











« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 01:48:05 PM by Andy_MI »
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YellowStone

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Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2006, 02:42:21 PM »

Andy,

Your post was beautifully constructed and well presented. I too agree with all you state, as it fully supports the saving of all mankind.

I will never go as far as saying that I know the mind of God, so I will continue to trust that his will be done. :)

Love,
Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2006, 04:28:57 PM »


Hi Andy,

I do not look at the salvation of all creation, to include bugs and any animals life.
You must know Christ to abtain saivation.

1Th 5:9  For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2Ti 2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

So only the things in creation that have a mind, and can know Christ can obtain salvation.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

"...Fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them."

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------------

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).

It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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