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Author Topic: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.  (Read 4187 times)

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andrevan

  • Guest
1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« on: December 02, 2006, 04:20:02 AM »

1Pe 3:17 For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil,
1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn [the one’s living before the flood?], when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
1Pe 3:21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him." [clv]

1Pe 4:3 For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,
1Pe 4:4 while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"
1Pe 4:5 who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."
1Pe 4:7 Now the consummation of all is near. Be sane, then, and sober for prayers,
1Pe 4:8 before all, having earnest love among yourselves, for love is covering a multitude of sins." [clv]

Hi Everyone

I’ve been looking at these scriptures for a while, and at present my thoughts are that these passages are talking about Jesus’ preaching in the spirit to all of humanity that lived up until & were destroyed in the global flood of Noah's day. How does this work if our souls are “asleep” when we’re dead and our spirits are returned to God?
Some Christians claim that this is when Jesus went to hell while He was hanging on the cross, which is nonsense, He was dead and hell does not exist.

The reason I ask this is that on another forum someone was talking about children dying before the age of accountability, and someone else used 1 Peter 3:18-20 to answer them, implying that they would hear the Gospel anyway.

What are your thoughts on these scriptures, I can’t recall if Ray went into detail about this. I want to to get a better and sound understanding of what these scriptures mean. Am I way off?

Thanks and God bless you.
Andrevan.
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mick24458

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Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 04:57:42 AM »

Hi Andrevan,
This has been a scripture that has baffled me and no one seems to give a stisfactory answer. There are certainly huge implications if it does mean that the dead had a chance to hear the gospel and it does create all sorts of questions in relation to "glory land Vs slumberland".
I'm really interested to hear the opinions of those more learned than me.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 08:13:29 AM »

Hi there

I have found some food for your thoughts!

Enjoy!

Arcturus
:)

Spirits in Prison « on: July 12, 2006, 12:32:55 AM »   
 This turned out pretty good: Spirits in PrisonSome argue that death changed after Christ's resurrection and he freed or preached to the conscious deceased or, as some hypothesize, fallen angels. After all, Christ did preach to prisoners. "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:19, KJV).Many overlook the context of this verse and interpret the prison the verse speaks of to be what their preconceived ideas express. It is commonly reported that this prison is where Old Testament saints dwelled before being freed by Christ. However, this ignores the verse which comes right after. "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water" (1Pe 3:20, KJV).These spirits were those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. If Christ literally preached to disembodied spirits, not only is there no mention of Christ releasing them, but these spirits exclude all others that were not disobedient during the days of Noah. Also, there is no logical explanation given by Peter as to why Jesus would waste time and preach to the disembodied spirits of those disobedient during the days of Noah and no one else. Also, it must be noted that Christ was not made alive in Spirit (verse 18) until after resurrection (1Co 15:45), meaning for Christ to preach unto disembodied spirits, he would have to do so after being raised from the dead. However, there is no mention of a resurrected Christ preaching to disembodied spirits, and even if there was, it would not make logical sense for the spirits to be conscious to even hear Christ. Not only this, but we cannot be certain that this is even a proper rendering of this verse. Thus, it is highly unsafe to base doctrine off this single verse, with uncertainty of its translation, especially while neglecting its usage. For example, Adam Clarke (1762–1832) in his Commentary on the Bible reports, "But even on this word there are several various readings; some of the Greek MSS. read πνευματι, in spirit, and one πνευματι Αγιω, in the Holy Spirit. I have before me one of the first, if not the very first edition of the Latin Bible; and in it the verse stands thus: ...[translated] 'by which he came spiritually, and preached to them that were in prison.' In two very ancient MSS. of the Vulgate before me, the clause is thus: ... [translated] 'in which, coming by the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison.' This is the reading also in the Complutensian Polyglot. Another ancient MS. in my possession has the words nearly as in the printed copy: ... [translated] 'in which, coming spiritually, he preached to those who were Shut Up in prison.' ... In my old MS. Bible, which contains the first translation into English ever made, the clause is the following: In whiche thing and to hem that weren closid togyder in prison, hi commynge in Spirit, prechide. The copy from which this translation was taken evidently read conclusi erdnt, with one of the MSS. quoted above, as closid togyder proves. I have quoted all these authorities from the most authentic and correct copies of the Vulgate, to show that from them there is no ground to believe that the text speaks of Christ’s going to hell to preach the Gospel to the damned, or of his going to some feigned place where the souls of the patriarchs were detained, to whom he preached, and whom he delivered from that place and took with him to paradise, which the Romish Church holds as an article of faith" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible).The implications of these other renderings completely change the common interpretation. These renderings suggest Christ preached in Spirit, by the same Spirit that he was made alive in, which could mean he preached through Noah to those disobedient before the flood, which agrees with the views expressed by the Church Father Augustine, John Darby, John Gill, and Jamieson, Fausset and Brown. Nevertheless, with the translation we are left with, correct or not correct, we must determine by use of contextual adhering and the avoiding of contradiction what this single verse means by aid of Scripture. It first must be noted with the translation we are left with, despite the translations that differ, that even if Peter intended to refer to the prisoners as spirits, it is not unordinary. For example, John also refers to living mortals as spirits, when he says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits," in reference to the "many false prophets" who "are gone out into the world" (1Jo 4:1, KJV). In fact, to interpret the spuriously translated verse to say that Christ spoke to disembodied spirits contradicts Solomon, who said when man dies "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7, KJV), whereas, there is no mention of disembodied spirits going to prison after death. Besides, Christ was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, which did not include a prison. Not to mention, the verse directly before it reads: "Because, Christ also, once for all, concerning sins, died,—Just in behalf of unjust,—in order that he might introduce us unto God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, but made alive in spirit" (1Pe 3:18, Rotherham).We are told Christ was made alive in Spirit, then the next verse begins by saying, "In which, even unto the spirits in prison, he went and proclaimed" (1Pe 3:19, Rotherham). In which even, how? The Greek words translated in which are en w. En means "A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position ... 'in', at, (up-) on, by, etc." (Strong G1722), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, in. W is defined as "the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that" (Strong G3739), translated by Rotherham, Young, and the CLV, which. The word that comes after is kai, "Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc." (Strong G2532), translated by Rotherham, even; Young, also; and the Concordant Literal Version, also. Christ was made alive in Spirit, in which also he preached to prisoners. In other words, it was the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, by which he preached to prisoners. We are told that these prisoners lived in the days of Noah. Could it then be said, that by the same Spirit Christ was made alive in, is how also he preached to prisoners? How would this be? Simple. "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas" (Act 1:16, KJV). "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake" (Act 6:10, KJV). "Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers" (Act 28:25, KJV). "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2Pe 1:21, KJV). It is the same Spirit, which was in Christ during his ministry, the same Spirit which made him alive after resurrection, and "the Spirit of Christ which was in them [the prophets]" (1Pe 1:11, KJV), by which Jesus Christ preached through Noah to prisoners. After all, by the same power Noah preached, so did Christ. Not only this, but it was said by God that his "spirit shall not always strive with man" (Gen 6:3, KJV) in reference to the times of Noah. It was God's Spirit, the Spirit that dwells in Christ, that preached through Noah, the other Saints, and Christ himself. As John the Baptist "in the spirit and power of Elias, [went] to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children" (Luk 1:17), so also did Noah preach with the same Spirit and power as Christ, and Christ with the same Spirit and power as Noah. Just as John could be said to have preached to those Elijah preached to, by the same Spirit and power, so also can Christ said to have preached to those Noah preached to, for he did preach with the same Spirit and power during his ministry. Though it depends on one's personal interpretation of the Godhead, there can be said to be two exact ways, based on Scripture, by which Jesus preached through Noah: one, if argued Christ consciously preexisted, he willed the Holy Spirit to speak on his behalf through Noah; two, the Holy Spirit, which spoke through Christ, also spoke through Noah, hence Christ preached through Noah in a figurative sense, much in the way the Spirit and power of Elijah was embodied in and through John the Baptist. Depending on one's beliefs, option one and two can work together. Nevertheless, one thing is clear: Christ, in some shape or form, whether consciously as a being, unconsciously as a force, or in a figurative sense representing his power and the Spirit that dwelled in him, preached through Noah. With all this said, it then must be asked, what is prison? In the Scriptures, prison is used to signify three things. [1] Being bound up in sin or being blind, i.e. ignorant of the things of the Spirit—soulish (e.g., Psa 142:7). [2] Relating to chastisement, trial, or affliction (e.g., Gen 39:20, Luk 12:58). [3] Literal prison, a place of literal containment (e.g., Act 8:3). Of course, the meaning must be determined by the context of its usage. Prison may also be used to denote bondage in general, rather than specific bondage (e.g., Rev 20:7). Peter's usage of prison relates to the disobedient in the days of Noah before the building of the Ark. Because the verse is speaking pre-flood, prison cannot denote number two, because the disobedient had not yet been chastised. Likewise, it could not refer to number three, because there is no mention of the disobedient being locked in literal prison. This leaves number one. Prison, in this case, is used to personify the bondage of sin or the ignorance all are locked in before hearing and believing the Gospel. "Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me" (Psa 142:7, KJV).David was bound up sin because he "received not the promise" (Heb 11:39, KJV), was under the "the law [that] worketh wrath" (Rom 4:15, KJV), "the deeds of [which] there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20, KJV). David was bound in prison because Christ had not yet been sacrificed in place of "those sacrifices which they offered year by year" that "can never ... make the comers thereunto perfect" (Heb 10:1, KJV). "But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore" (Isa 42:22, KJV). "That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places" (Isa 49:9, KJV). "To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house" (Isa 42:7, KJV). In these above examples, prison refers to those that are "robbed and spoiled," and "in darkness," having "blind eyes"—bound in sin, ignorant to the Gospel. This is also the case for those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. They were bound in sin, blind, and sitting in darkness. Light had come into their world and they refused it (Joh 3:19). "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind [e.g., Isa 42:7], to set at liberty them that are bruised" (Luk 4:18, KJV. Emphasis added).Christ preached to prisoners during his earthly ministry in like manner to his spiritual preaching through Noah. These were "captives" of sin. In short, Christ, one way or another, by Spirit, preached through Noah to those bound by sin, who were blinded with darkness, and disobedient while the Ark was a preparing.
By : nightmare sasuke

The next food for thought follows as :

Re: Spirits in Prison « Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 08:52:10 AM »   
 
Ps 102:20
To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To unloose the sons of death,

Ps 102:21
So that the Name of Yahweh may be recounted in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem,


Isa 42:6
"I, Yahweh Elohim, call you in righteousness, and I will hold fast to your hand and preserve you, and I will give you for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Nations,

Isa 42:7
to unclose the eyes that are blind, to bring forth the prisoner from his enclosure, and those dwelling in darkness from the house of detention.

Isa 42:8
I am Yahweh, The Elohim! That is My name, and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praises to carvings.


Ps 146:6
Maker of the heavens and earth, The sea and all that is in them, The Guardian of truth for the eons;

Ps 146:7
He is the One executing right judgment for those being exploited, The Giver of bread to the famished, Yahweh, letting loose those who are bound,

Ps 146:8
Yahweh, unclosing the eyes of the blind, Yahweh, making erect those who are bent down, Yahweh, loving those who are righteous,

Ps 146:9
Yahweh, Guardian over the sojourners;? The orphan and the widow shall He bolster up, Yet the way of the wicked shall He overturn.



Nightmare sasuke, here is a few more scriptures that might help.  We were all bound, held captive, prisoners to sin.  It is Him and Him alone who looses the bonds and frees the captives, to the Liberty which is in Christ.  Interesting article.

God bless,

Gary

By : orion77

And finally
  :D

Nightmare, I don't often read such long posts   But yours got my attention and I read it all way through. 

Very impressive and scripturally sound. I have heard many different renderings concerning "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:19, KJV).

They all had lot's of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. You provided both

I would caution you though, for all are not ready to listen or disern. Such as these will call white, black and there is no changing there mind. You have provided a wonderful study so by all means, sow the seeds, but it is God that will decide if it is time for them to grow in truth.

So be not disappointed if your paper is met with blank stares and condemnation. But, by the grace of God,  those that can see will .

Lotos of Love to all

Darren

By Yellowstone
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2006, 06:20:17 AM »

Wow! Thanks Arcturus. What you've dug up has been the clearest explanation I've read so far.

What I'm understanding from this is that God's spirit in Christ preached through Noah to the pre-flood people. "It was God's Spirit, the Spirit that dwells in Christ, that preached through Noah, the other Saints, and Christ himself."

I think I get this now. My error was thinking that this is something that Christ did while on the cross in the spirit  ::), which can't be as the dead are dead :) . The explanation of those in prison [captives of sin, those bound/chained up by sin] helped a great deal as well.

Now to that other piece of scripture:
1 Peter 4:5 "who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead." The ones who will be rendering an account to Him [God], the nations, those that "are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you", I'm thinking are those in the time of Jesus & the Apostles that heard the Gospel. I would love to hear others thoughts on these scriptures, so I may compare & further my understanding of this.

Well Mick, I guess Arcturus' post may have helped you as well, no one who's dead hears the Gospel until they're resurrected to judgement  :).

The peace of God be with you all.
Andrevan.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 05:11:15 PM »



Just to add to your studies...... :D

1cOR 10 : 1-3

For I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, that our forefathers were all under and protcted by the cloud in which God's presence went before them, and every one of them passed safely through the Red Sea. 2. And each one of them allowed himself also to be baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea they were thus brought under obligation to the Law, to Moses, and to the covenant, consecrated and set apart to the service of God. 3. And all of them ate the same spiritual suipernaturally give food. 4. And all of them drand the same spiritual supernaturally given drink. For they drand from a spiritual Rock which followed them produced by the sole power  of God Himself without natural instumentality, AND THE ROCK WAS CHRIST.

For me your quote of 1 Peter 4 : 5 refers to those who are rejecting Christ, who have no spiritual discernment, who believe the things of Christ are foolishness but for God, they are actually the fools.

1 Cor 3 : 19 For this world's wisdom is foolishness, absurdity and stupidity with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their own craftiness

Job 5 : 13 He catches the so-called wise in theri own trickiness, and the counsel of the schmers is brought to a quick end.


Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 04:16:56 AM »

Thanks Arcturus for your help.

You wrote: "For me your quote of 1 Peter 4 : 5 refers to those who are rejecting Christ, who have no spiritual discernment, who believe the things of Christ are foolishness but for God, they are actually the fools."

I'm thinking that these nations/gentiles mentioned above could also be linked to 1 Peter 4:6 in that they heard the Gospel, and as you mention, chose to reject the Gospel as well as Christ.
 
"For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit." So those of 1Peter 4:3-5 who are now dead, heard this Gospel in their lifetime? They are judged "according to men in flesh" [in the same way/in proportion to how we are to be judged?],  "yet should be living to God in the spirit" [they too will be vivified at the second resurrection?].

I read a couple of bible commentries [can't remember which] some time back, that linked those in jail in 1 Peter 3:19 with those of 1 Peter 4:6, I thought I'd have another look at this from a different angle. I may be way off, but its a good study anyway.

The scriptures you posted have given me more to consider and go on with, thanks again.

God bless you  :)
Andrevan.
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kennymac

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 03:00:46 AM »

Hello,

This is a study I have on the spirits in prison. I would like very much to know what you all think

The Angels that Sinned

« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 03:07:10 PM by hillsbororiver »
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 08:01:02 AM »

Thanks kennymac.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"
2Pe 2:5 and spares not the ancient world, but guards Noah, an eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a deluge on the world of the irreverent;"
2Pe 2:6 and condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them as an example for those about to be irreverent:"
2Pe 2:7 and rescues the just man, Lot, harried by the behavior of the dissolute in their wantonness" [clv]

Back to the subject, therefore I doubt that the spirits in prison of 1 Peter 3 & 4 were these angels in the above verses, something doesn’t sound right, is there any mention that the angels that sinned were preached to? Possibly the nephilim [humans, not angels] were amongst those that Christ preached to through Noah before the global flood destroyed them all.

An interesting study you presented, and worth looking into further :).

God bless.
Andrevan
« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 11:11:55 PM by andrevan »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 03:01:44 PM »

 Hi kennymac,

You keep posting (uncredited) articles/sermons here after requests that you remain within the rules of the Forum.

Why do you continue to do that?  ???

I will post the Forum rules here once again;


Dennis Vogel
Administrator
Jr. Member

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Posts: 113


     Please read this before posting.
« on: March 15, 2006, 07:48:02 AM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

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THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

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No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.

This forum is moderated, if you feel you cannot accept the bounds of a limited forum then don’t join.  The moderators do not have the time to explain every decision to you on why a post was deleted, so don’t expect it. 

The moderators will generally try to remove posts before banning a member, don’t take it personally.  If you see your posts being removed then perhaps you should review what you are writing to make sure is goes along with the forum rules.  If you are asked to let a subject drop, or a particular subject is off limits then please abide by what the moderators ask.  Don’t necessarily expect a reason for the request, many things go on behind the scenes of the forum and the moderators are doing what they feel is best.

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Thank you for your cooperation.



Here are a couple of Rays replies to e-mails on the subject;

 
 [Ray Replies]

Dear Abed:

Thank you for your email and questions.

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED."   The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James.  Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:

"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."

Sorry I don't have time to explain the meaning of all these verses, but at least I want you to know that this is not a case of angels fornicating with women.

God be with you,

Ray




Dear Ryan:

Thank you for your kind words regarding our site.

Demons and Nephilum do not apparently have anything in common.

Demons were "good teachers" in classical Greek. By the writing of the Septuagint they were thought to be evil spirits and thus are the translation of of "daimonion" which means "TEACH-diminutive."   They are spirits of an evil nature that cause great harm and pain to those whom they sometimes possess.

Nephilum is not really a translation. It is used twice in the Revised Standard Version where the King James has "giants." These giants are not the result of the sexual union of angels and women, but are the offspring of a man and woman. The same is true for the giants called "Rephaim." There were apparently clans of giant people in Canaan. (See Num. 13:33).

Sincerely,

Ray

Please try to stay within the confines of the Forum rules.

hillsbororiver (Joe)


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 03:05:28 PM »

Hello,

This is a study I have on the spirits in prison. I would like very much to know what you all think

The Angels that Sinned


Hi kennymac,

You keep posting (uncredited) articles/sermons here after requests that you remain within the rules of the Forum.

Why do you continue to do that?  ???

I will post the Forum rules here once again;


Dennis Vogel
Administrator
Jr. Member

 Offline

Posts: 113


     Please read this before posting.
« on: March 15, 2006, 07:48:02 AM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray.

No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.

This forum is moderated, if you feel you cannot accept the bounds of a limited forum then don’t join.  The moderators do not have the time to explain every decision to you on why a post was deleted, so don’t expect it. 

The moderators will generally try to remove posts before banning a member, don’t take it personally.  If you see your posts being removed then perhaps you should review what you are writing to make sure is goes along with the forum rules.  If you are asked to let a subject drop, or a particular subject is off limits then please abide by what the moderators ask.  Don’t necessarily expect a reason for the request, many things go on behind the scenes of the forum and the moderators are doing what they feel is best.

If you have a problem with a moderator, the way the forum is managed, or another user of the forum then address this through private mails.  Publicly airing your grievances will be grounds for banishment. 

Learn to use the private mail function.  If you don't know how then ask.

Thank you for your cooperation.



Here are a couple of Rays replies to e-mails on the subject;

 
 [Ray Replies]

Dear Abed:

Thank you for your email and questions.

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED."   The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James.  Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:

"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."

Sorry I don't have time to explain the meaning of all these verses, but at least I want you to know that this is not a case of angels fornicating with women.

God be with you,

Ray




Dear Ryan:

Thank you for your kind words regarding our site.

Demons and Nephilum do not apparently have anything in common.

Demons were "good teachers" in classical Greek. By the writing of the Septuagint they were thought to be evil spirits and thus are the translation of of "daimonion" which means "TEACH-diminutive."   They are spirits of an evil nature that cause great harm and pain to those whom they sometimes possess.

Nephilum is not really a translation. It is used twice in the Revised Standard Version where the King James has "giants." These giants are not the result of the sexual union of angels and women, but are the offspring of a man and woman. The same is true for the giants called "Rephaim." There were apparently clans of giant people in Canaan. (See Num. 13:33).

Sincerely,

Ray

Please try to stay within the confines of the Forum rules.

hillsbororiver (Joe)


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kennymac

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Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 03:28:29 AM »

Dennis,

 I found the information to be interesting and I was hoping to gain more insight on the subject.

I guess this is not the place for me, everytime I look to gain understanding on a topic I am treated like the enemy.

Sorry once again.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2006, 10:19:26 AM »

Dennis,

 I found the information to be interesting and I was hoping to gain more insight on the subject.

I guess this is not the place for me, everytime I look to gain understanding on a topic I am treated like the enemy.

Sorry once again.

Kennymac,

There is no problem in asking a question or seeking opinions or insight, posting huge articles without disclosing the author makes it difficult for the moderators, the rules are very straightforward.

In the future please state a premise and ask a direct question no one will have a problem with that.

We appreciate your cooperation.

His peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe     
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mick24458

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Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2006, 05:28:35 PM »

Well Mick, I guess Arcturus' post may have helped you as well, no one who's dead hears the Gospel until they're resurrected to judgement  :).
Andrevan.
Thanks Adrevan, I read through the material you posted and it certainly makes more sense that the dead ae dead, awaiting the resurrection and  also that Jesus, when He died, was dead in the grave until resurrected. I take it from the response that what you are saying, and what seems apparrent in Ray's teaching, is that there is no consciousness in the grave at all and whatever it is that God will do in furthering the grace that is extended to all in Christ, will be done post resurrection in the age or ages to come. In the meantime, the dead are dead, which seems a lot more consisitent with the bulk of scripture. What about ghosts and reports of the like? Do you think this is just deception of evil spirits? I also find it facinating that Saul goes to a medium at Endor and she actually conjures up the ghost of Samuel - he does say, "why did you wake me" which I suppose strenthens the argument of the dead being "asleep" in their graves.
I teach teenagers Biblical Studies in a school and questions about death, the afterlife and heaven & hell are much on their minds. I feel a huge responsibility to get this right and teach accurately. I am becoming more and more aware of the influence of "christian religion" especially of the Romish kind on much of the traditional beliefs. My focus is to keep the main things as the main things: christ died for our sins and rose again - and then keep things as simple and straighforward as I can.
Thanks for the help. I will keep asking and keep reading. I think I need to purchase a Literal Concordant Bible.
 :)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 04:56:27 AM »

Hello Mick24458

I am so glad you have posted your comments. I have had experiences of spirits since very small. I do not claim to have any so called psychic gifts which would be to profess being highly deceived!     :D   But nonetheless I have had some pretty strange, frightening and then again, wonderful experiences with the spirit world.  We know from the scriptures that this world does exist but how are we to understand it? It was only after being given the teachings here on Bible Truths that it became comprehensible for me!
Enjoy then this amazing revelation that is from an e-mail response from Ray. This should help and empower you in your desire to keep things as simple and straightforward as you can for your teenage Bible Study classes!   I just want to add…Jesus Christ has said in John 11:24 I am the resurrection. (Not anyone else…not pastor…preacher. or others who feign this office of Christ’s power and authority by making claim that they can or have raised the dead.)

Also from LOF part 2 on Heresies Ray writes

“Christian theologians contradict and refuse to preach the truth.
·   Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life? (John 5 : 29)? Yes.
BUT, do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? NO!



1027      / Email to Ray / Eternal Punishment    on: May 13, 2006, 08:04:20 AM
Dear Ray,I was somewhat surprised, on reading your three articles, that you make no mention of King Saul's great sin.He got a medium to summon the ghost of Samuel, who before telling the king what God thought of him, asked why he had been awakened.In light of what you say in your articles, I think it only fair that you tell your readers about necromancy, which since God has outlawed it, we know exists.When the soul dies the body rots and the spirit returns to God, where itawaits the day of judgemnt in an unconscious state, unless it is awakenedprematurely as in the case of Samuel.Yours sincerely,Peter

Dear Peter:Samuel was unconscious and DEAD during that whole Witch of Endor scenario.  Our "spirit" does not have consciousness upon death. No witch or demon has the power to bring a dead person back to life. God uses "LYING SPIRITS" to comune with evil people such as Saul (See I Kings 22:22-23 & II Chron. 18:22-23).God be with you,Ray

Peace to you

Arcturus :)





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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 05:28:25 AM »

What about ghosts and reports of the like? Do you think this is just deception of evil spirits? I also find it facinating that Saul goes to a medium at Endor and she actually conjures up the ghost of Samuel - he does say, "why did you wake me" which I suppose strenthens the argument of the dead being "asleep" in their graves.
 :)

Hi Mick24458,

the scriptural truth that the dead are all really dead awaiting ressurection was a key in helping me understand many scriptures. Yes, I do think that ghosts, (as well as poltergeists, alien sightings/visitations, etc.) are ALL deceiving spirits, I came to understand the incident with Saul going to a medium to be one of these as well. Ray nails it when he says:
Quote
God uses "LYING SPIRITS" to comune with evil people such as Saul (See I Kings 22:22-23 & II Chron. 18:22-23).

I think you're on the right track with your bible studies, keeping it simple and accurate. May God continue to guide you in this as you undertake teaching. :)

Arcturus, I'm so happy to hear that you finally got understanding about spirits from Ray's material, and thanks for your helpful post.

Peace and love to you all.
Andrevan.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: 1 Peter 3:18-20 The spirits in jail.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 05:58:57 AM »

Hello Andrevan

Yes, I finally got it because in God's own timing and plan, He was pleased to release to me the truth. Now I feel like I can now see straight through them!....past them....they are deceiving, imitating, conniving, and useless to the perception of the almighty Sovereignty of Christ!

I did not know that these spirits have been around since the garden. When that clicked then I could see why they know so much about us and can pretend to be our dearly departed loved ones when if fact they are only hateful deceivers that turn eyes into darkness of error binding souls as to a tread mill to suffer going round and round and round again to nowhere and nothing except more pain and more suffering and less dependence on Jesus Christ.

For me, only Christ is the resurrection. Everything else is a lie. There is no other way out of delusions and seductions. The  crystal clear insights available to us through His mercy and grace made visible through His teachings shared with us through Ray is a true gift of liberation  ;D A real blessing and healing experience.

Peace to you
Arcturus  :)
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