Will Satan get saved part 2

[gmik]

I wanted to start a new thread because the other was getting very long and I thought many might not see where Andy has left our forum.  I liked Andy's posts and he has gone thru a lot.  But must we leave if we don't believe every iota that Ray or any of us believe? Andy if you read this please reconsider and join us again.

Salvation was given to:  mankind, all men, the world, the Jew, the Greek- these are all lpeople.  I don't think satan, as a created entity by God, qualifies as people.  So I am not sure he will be "saved" exactly like us. But there is merit to the view that he is in "all creation"

What does it mean that after the 1,000 years he will be loosed (from Tartarus?) to gather the nations for battle ( there is war between the reign & rule and the GWT?) and then God's fire comes down and devours Satan & his minions.  How is he devoured but saved at the same time?  Personally it doesn't matter to me if he gets purged and saved or not.  I just don't see scripture saying so exactly and yes I know Ray says so bcz of the word ALL.  Which is a good point too. But it is not doctrine to me and I wouldn't debate it or argue about it.

Another point.Rev. 20:10-15 tells us who is in the LOF:  the adversary, wild beast, false prophet, death, unseen, anyone not found written inthe scroll of life, elsewhere it mentions angels (demons).  That is a lot of creatures/things/people.  Now is satan devoured before the GWT and after the 1,000 years?  Or does the devouring take place or is the LOF?  To me, all of this is spiritual, parables and is not meant to be rendered word for word or point for point. There seems to be a lot of differing thoughts on "end times" and probably always will be.

To be reconciled implies that you were once conciled.  Brought back together.  I used to think that meant what we all lost would be brought back to us- back to Paradise-so yes there would be animals there.  But now I don't know. We were once estranged from God and He is bringing us back to Himself.  Is that right? Not a place but to Him.

Here is the problem with these kinds of discussions (or vain babblings)  more people will read these kinds of threads then the kind for prayer or helping out those in need.

I hope I have not offended anyone.  These are just my thoughts.  I am not presenting them as doctrine or things written in stone.  I am learning every day (mostly from you guys & gals) so I could think on this differently tomorrow.

I am just sad that Andy left.

Love,
gena

[YellowStone]

Gena, what a lovely post.

You echo my view perfectly. This whole debate is pointless.

And I am shocked that "some" would latch onto an ideal, the very ideal that is not God himself does not teach.

All in All, how inclusive is this? Well some state that it obviously does not mean a tree, because it isn't capable of knowing evil or sinning?

Which is a very good point; however, it is ONLY a one sided view. Has anyone considered that the tree is NOT CAPABLE of doing anything good, that it simply is what it is, a tree.

Can this same argument be not given to Satan. Can we not assume from all of the Scripture given, that SATAN too, is in capable of doing anything good. God allows trees to be destroyed, why similarly not SATAN.

Gena, you are 100% correct, these are vain babblings which have caused nothing but dissension. Sound doctrine presented by Andy was buried, because one man said ALL IN ALL.

If God, Christ or the many Prophets did not teach the salvation of Satan, then it is SIMPLY NOT IMPORTANT.

Do any of you believe that God wants dissension in this forum? What then about Satan, don't you think he is loving what is happening now.

Why must I and others change faith and belief, which was given by GOD and no other?

I pray that none here ever forget these words:

Mar 12:30-31
30 - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And that none of us ever forget the words of James:

Jam 4:16
But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Andy did no wrong, he presented the Scripture soundly as he was shown by God.

Don't leave brother, It matters nothing to me that Ray believes Satan will be saved. I don't!! I might be wrong, who cares?  Certainly not God, and if any here has a problem with that, then that is their problem.

Satan loves dissension, God loves unity in love.

Love to all,

Darren

[brothertoall]

Andy,

I have pretty much been reading the thread and have not said anything.

I agree with those here that you Andy where searching for an answer to a question that God has given you and if He gave it He will also likewise show you the answer.

Darren and Gena you are so right in that God will take care and restore everything and I believe we should let Him do that. it is not for us to worry and argue over something that only God knows what will happen. After all our thoughts are not His thoughts and who can know the mind of God. His ways are far above ours.

The most important thing is to love God and to love all mankind. I say I have a long way to go on this and it is Christ alone who will do that in me. I am sure that I do not believe anyone in this forum has gotten to that point where they have reached perfection in that area. if you have please forgive and I will admit I am wrong.

Ray I am sure will agree 100% with what I am about to say. Are we to follow Ray or are we to follow Christ? I know exactly what Ray would say to this question. Ray would say " I am nothing without Christ. I am just an instrument that he has used to reveal the truth that He has so graciously given me. It is the Grace of God that has made this possible and all is from our heavenly Father."

I will have to admit that this topic is a bit to far away for me as far as understanding or trying to understand. It is enough that I am trying to know the will God! There are many questions posted on this forum and there is always alot of input but is it too hard to say I don't know sometimes? It just may be that God does not want us to know the answers to some questions right now.


bobby

[brothertoall]

Andy it sadens me that you think you must leave and I actually see that you have already left. Andy I would just like to say that you are a very good friend and brother and I will deeply miss you. I hope that when you get these questions answered by God that you will surely come back and share with us all.

You will truly be missed my friend and I want you to know I love you!!

bobby

[Kat]

Hi Gena and Darren,

Well, Andy stated what he believed, and that is what I was doing too.
He did ask what we thought about this, that was the reason for his starting the thread.
I am sad that he left, there is a difference in how some of us view this matter, but it was not a pivotal point of understanding.

What does it mean that after the 1,000 years he will be loosed (from Tartarus?) to gather the nations for battle ( there is war between the reign & rule and the GWT?) and then God's fire comes down and devours Satan & his minions.  How is he devoured but saved at the same time? 

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
Rev 20:3  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.
Rev 20:8  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.


Gena, my understanding is that Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 yrs., so he can again deceive and lead the nations against Christ's and the saints, who is reigning.
When all the nations are gathered together, fire (God's judgment) will come down and destroy (purge) them. 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

Thank you for your loving responses.  I hope Andy will read these.

Kat, when the elect are reigning with Christ what body are we in?? I guess I never thought about it, but all the people on Earth are living life as usual, correct??  How are we judging and ruling with a rod of iron?? Then when all the physical get devoured from fire on high, where are we then. 

See, I have all these questions but then I say it is vain babblings, so who really knows or cares?  I am conflicted to be sure.  I just want to make sure I am serving/pleasing the Lord today!   But then I start wondering..........

Love you all,
gena

[hillsbororiver]

Hello everyone,

I have been a bit reserved here of late but I do feel the need to make a few comments, ask a few questions.

Did Andy give Ray an opportunity to review his (Andy's) "revelation from God?" Was Andy a bit presumptuous in the accusation he hurled? How does one determine if a revelation is from God or someplace else? Does Satan know how to quote scripture?

I have seen this happen many times in the past, a member here has a question or a different take on a subject (nothing wrong with that) and then goes off on a tirade, leaves in a huff without any consideration of the possibility that they just might be mistaken or have a lack of understanding at this point in time. There seems to be no room with some folks for humble, sober or patient study. Where does this spirit eminate from?

Bobby made an excellent point when he said we are followers of Christ and not of Ray or any other human being, with that being said I doubt anyone can honestly state that Ray has not been given a spiritual gift of teaching, it has been slowly revealed over a long period of studying, trials, tribulations, sacrifice and diligence. The work that the Spirit has done through him has given comfort, peace and hope to many (myself very much included) and it pains me to see accusations like this being hurled by someone, anyone, that hasn't the experience or knowledge to attempt to teach in such an authoritive manner, there lies the heresy!

I would hope in the future that if there are any severe disagreements with the articles on Bible Truths that they are taken directly to Ray while providing the scriptural witnesses to refute, not to take a few verses and human logic, mix them together into a sermon and exalt oneself up as the bearer of truth and light.

It is my hope that we can all study, learn, share and edify humbly together and not get caught up in throwing accusations when we are not in agreement on any particular subject, we must be as the Bereans not only when we dissect someone else's writings but (especially) our own as well.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

     

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe,

I read your response and then reread my last post and I did find that I was a little terse. For this I apologize.

It is very hard learning new Scriptural concepts and forgetting those previously held close to the heart. I will be the first to stand up and say that Ray has been such a blessing in my life. He has reaffirmed so many of my previous God given beliefs that had never been affirmed by anyone. He has also opened my eyes to new truths, some which I had never previously considered; however, following Ray's in depth study, the pieces all seemed to fit perfectly.

I found Ray to be very spiritually enlightened, something which I cannot say about any other priest or minister I have previously known. I think this is wonderful, but it is not and can never be everything.

Here's why

Col 4:3

• Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Paul was without enlightened by God, being able to speak and reveal the mystery of God. (Something Ray does well) However, there is a catch. Understanding.

Col 1:9

• For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Everyone posting to this board (myself included) must always be needful of the understanding of others. Ray is no different than anyother person on this Earth. He can speak the words, but God grants understanding.

So here is the seemingly paradox. On one hand we all seek the truth, but we're all at different levels of understanding. I can sympathize with Andy, in that I believe by the power of God, that there is NO WAY that he will cleanse Satan. This is my God given understanding. I am not saying it is right, neither am I say I am wrong. Anything said that makes me question my belief has to be revealed by God first so that understanding can occur.

I believe that all here are very sincere in their search for truth, but we must never forget that the words on this forum (Rays included) are like sown seeds, we plant, God germinates. We may Speak diligently and emphatically, siting Scripture all the while, but unless God grants understanding, the words are meaningless.

We must pray to God that he grants us understanding and wisdom so that we can best share it. God has granted me so much, and I would be a fool to suggest that I know it all. Ray and many others regarding this topic maybe 100% correct. Who cares?

Seriously, who really cares? Because after we have searched the Scripture, prayed for understanding and feel closure from God, then this is all that we need. God will reveal all in his time.

I found the following Scripture that I think is worth sharing

Philippians 3:12-16

• 12 - Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.


• 13 - Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,


• 14 - I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


• 15 - All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.


• 16 - Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
[/b]

So before I forget, I thank you for stepping in and speaking wisely to us.   I pray that Andy will return; for we are all in this together.

This whole discussion has been very beneficial in a number of ways.

Love to you all,
Darren

[stego]

Hi all,
   I just wanted to say that I was also just expressing my opinion on this topic in my posts.  The whole point of this forum is for us to discuss things.   I don't see where this discussion was ever not in a spirit of love.

Sean

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Darren,

Thank you for your thoughtful response, there is much truth in the words you wrote.

My belief on this issue can again be made by questions.

1. Did God create Satan as he is or did Satan "choose" his role all by himself?

2. Does God have the power to change/purge the devil of his evil nature?

3. What does scripture mean when it is stated repeatedly that "all things" are created by Him, for Him and will be in subjection to Him?

Admittedly this is not really a subject that I meditate on, it is difficult enough praying & working through my own walk with Him, staying focused through the trials and dying to self, I can understand that this may be a tough pill to swallow but it is my belief that when God says "all" He means "all" and that it is well within His power to bring it to fruition.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe     

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

I would like to try to respond to your questions.
This is what I have come to understand.

when the elect are reigning with Christ what body are we in??

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

These scripture tell me "when He shall be revealed," at His return, "we (children of God) shall all be changed," "we shall be like Him," He is now a glorious Spirit being. capable of changing into a physical form.

Luke 24:36  Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you."
Luke 24:39  Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
Luke 24:42  So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
Luke 24:43  And He took it and ate in their presence.

He proved to them that He was totally physical by eating the food.... the elect will be "like Him" and I believe this is one way they will be like Him to rule those in the world.

I guess I never thought about it, but all the people on Earth are living life as usual, correct??  How are we judging and ruling with a rod of iron??

We have these scripture about when Christ returns to reign with a rod of iron.

Rev 12:5  And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Rev 5:10  And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

Rev 2:26  And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
Rev 2:27  And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

So it is my understanding, that the elect will be on earth, will have power over the nations.

Jer 3:15  And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:17  At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem. Nor shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart.
Jer 3:19  But I said, How shall I put you among the sons, and give you a pleasant land, a beautiful inheritance among the hosts of nations? And I said, You shall call Me, My Father, and shall not turn away from Me.

Hab 2:14  For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

These scripture really seems like it is talking about the 1000 year reign of Christ with the elect.  I believe the elect will actually govern the nations and guide them into the knowledge of the truth.  Since the elect will also be spirit they can go to them as need be. It seems like the nations will be forced, at first anyway, to obey the rule of Christ.

Then when all the physical get devoured from fire on high, where are we then. 

Rev 20:9  And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

Looking at 2 Peter as well, showing the "fire" devouring and causing all the elements to melt.

2Pe 3:12  looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat?"
But as I look at this, v.10 "the day of the Lord," so this is all symbolic of what will happen at that time.

The "fire" is the working of God's Spirit to cleanse and purge the world of sin, it is not literal 'burning' up everything, this is symbolic. The great white throne is the judgment of the world when Christ reigns.

And another thing I am rethinking, those raised to life at the GWT, or they raised as spirit?  In Rev. 20:12 it does not say they are spirit, in Eze 37 the valley full of bones, seems to be speaking of the GWT, but it seems to indicate being brought back to physical life.

v.6  And I will lay sinews on you, and will bring up flesh on you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.

I have been reminded that we should look closely at what the scripture actually says,
because those false teaching we have learned are so ingrained in our understanding.

Hope this is helpful, and makes some sense 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

This should help....

Resurrection
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:12:27 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Ray, quick question. Im struggling with the first resurrection. I hear so
> many conflicting ideas. Is it a spiritual resurrection, as in to be born again,
> Or is it only when Christ returns.
>
> Wesley


Dear Wesley:
When all else fails read and believe the Scriptures:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body"  (I Cor. 15:42-45)

When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."  In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born."  Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of  God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom:  "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory"  (Eph. 1:13-14).

I covered this in our Mobile Bible Conference last week. You should have been there.
God be with you,
Ray

Peace to you

Arcturus