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Author Topic: Money  (Read 6690 times)

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Craig

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Money
« on: March 16, 2006, 11:40:29 AM »

Dear Ray,  

I agree New Testament Giving has nothing to do with the mandatory Old Testament Law of tithing.

We are not obligated by law to give tithe or 10 percent of our income. New Testament giving should never be forced on anyone, however the spirit of the law is greater than the letter of the law, therefore, if people are taught properly about giving they should want or be willing to give even more than a mere tithe, or 10 percent of their income.

 Jesus said, “Give and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.? As we give to God we receive from God!

2Cor.9:6-10 says, “But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written:? He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures for ever.? Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness.?

 The real problem is the sinful nature of man, which is selfish and doesn’t want to give to God a portion of what he has given them. People in general, rather spend their money in the way they want to, which is generally on them, instead of giving to God. 2Timothy 3:1-5 says, “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such turn away!?

If you missed it man-kind will be or are, lovers of themselves, lovers of money, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, it also said they would be proud, haughty, or full of pride, as well as unthankful. I have found this to be true due to our sinful human nature and have found most people to be like the rich young ruler in Matt.19:21 but forget about giving it all, they won’t even give a mere 10 percent back to God who gave it to them in the first place due to their greediness and un-thankfulness to the Lord. People are not like the poor widow, who gave her last two mites (Mark 12: 41 -44; Luke 21:1-4), people don’t want to give until it hurts; they tend to be tightwads, stingy, greedy. They should remember 2Cor.9:6, “He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.? They should also give from right motives, willingly and joyfully according to (2Cor.9:7). God never forces anyone to obey Him, He does not force or make us not fornicate; commit adultery, lie, or give, it is our choice to respond to Him in obedience or to disobey Him.

People have a tendency to seek out teachers who will tell them want they want to hear, or according to their own desires. 2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; And they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.? Jude also warns us of ungodly men who will turn the grace of God into a license to sin (Jude 4). People must be taught and understand that the spirit of the covenant or law of grace is greater than the Law of Moses and because it is we should be willing to give even more than a tithe or 10 percent to God. If we fail to do this, then we empower people in their own greediness and selfishness, this causes people to miss out on the blessings of God, because He wants to bless His people. John prayed, “Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.?      
 
The problem is people are not taught properly how to give. To give to God any amount is an act of faith, which requires we believe His Word, and that we trust Him to provide for us. Rom.14:23 says, “…for whatever is not from faith is sin.? The New Testament covenant of grace is greater than the law, and although we are not under the law or obligated to give we should be willing to give even more than a mere 10 percent of our income, but most are greedy and selfish and don’t want to give to God even 10 percent of their income! What about you Ray, are you willing to give to God at least a tithe or 10 percent and follow the example set by Abraham, who gave 10 percent by faith before the law was ever established, “Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace…? (Rom.4:16). God knows your thoughts and the motives of your heart and you will have to give an account to Him for your giving, and well as what you teach others about giving.

Thank you for your time.

God Bless you,

Jeff

 

Jeff:

There is some truth in what you say: people are greedy. But let's not forget that pastors of churches are also people and many of them are EVEN MORE GREEDY than their parishioners. Do not assume that giving money to greedy men is giving anything at all to GOD. Show me one Scripture where God wants anyone's money?  God wants you, not your money. If you will truly obey God, you will come OUT OF THE CHURCHES that teach you to give them your money.

God be with you,

Ray
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Satch

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money
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 02:21:41 PM »

So right, God wants us period! In giving ourselves to Him completely we give Him every part of ourselves , and our lives. That would include money. I wonder based on some of what I have read, if Mr. Smith may have been hurt in a church by a pastor or congregation. Just based purely on what I have read, it would seem so. I say this not to incite controversy but to understand the situation. I don't know of ministers that I have an up close relationship with that would condemn one for not giving 10% nor are they wealthy. They are actually living with little money and don't expect to get rich on this earth. They just want to share the Good News of Jesus Christ.
 It is so wrong for one to be judged and condemned based on how much money one gives. Now on the flip side of that, in the area where I live which is a pretty small town, there are many ministers who are making a lot of money. I know from talking to someone from a local church that the offering just in one week was over $22,000! I can hardly imagine that amount. This came from people who do hard physical labor at their jobs. This I don't agree with. I hope that is not offensive to anyone... it is what I feel.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: money
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 02:59:38 PM »

Quote from: Satch
So right, God wants us period! In giving ourselves to Him completely we give Him every part of ourselves , and our lives. That would include money. I wonder based on some of what I have read, if Mr. Smith may have been hurt in a church by a pastor or congregation. Just based purely on what I have read, it would seem so. I say this not to incite controversy but to understand the situation. I don't know of ministers that I have an up close relationship with that would condemn one for not giving 10% nor are they wealthy. They are actually living with little money and don't expect to get rich on this earth. They just want to share the Good News of Jesus Christ.
 It is so wrong for one to be judged and condemned based on how much money one gives. Now on the flip side of that, in the area where I live which is a pretty small town, there are many ministers who are making a lot of money. I know from talking to someone from a local church that the offering just in one week was over $22,000! I can hardly imagine that amount. This came from people who do hard physical labor at their jobs. This I don't agree with. I hope that is not offensive to anyone... it is what I feel.


Go here Satch and see why Ray is so against the greedy churches. The horror stories keep coming. So many that I do not bother to add them to the site anymore.

http://bible-truths.com/e-tithe.html

and http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm#cake

As Ray says, "it's not just about the money, it's ALL about the money," at least for most.


Dennis
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Jwn47

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Money
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 04:02:38 PM »

Dennis

I can see what Satch is saying.  When you have always attended a church where tithing is not taught as a requirement and where the minister has no conrol of his salary, no matter how much the people give, it is hard to appreciate how alot of people feel on this forum.


John
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love_magnified

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Money
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 04:25:17 PM »

Quote
So right, God wants us period! In giving ourselves to Him completely we give Him every part of ourselves , and our lives. That would include money. I wonder based on some of what I have read, if Mr. Smith may have been hurt in a church by a pastor or congregation. Just based purely on what I have read, it would seem so. I say this not to incite controversy but to understand the situation. I don't know of ministers that I have an up close relationship with that would condemn one for not giving 10% nor are they wealthy. They are actually living with little money and don't expect to get rich on this earth. They just want to share the Good News of Jesus Christ.


Why give your money to fund a heretical lie that teaches the people MUST give a tithe, and that sinners will be tortured in hell forever? Is that something believers in the truth should be funding. If you want to give of your heart, then by all means give. But at least give to something that is not rooted in lies of the enemy.
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Satch

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money
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 07:30:27 PM »

You are so right Dennis. It is hard for me to fully grasp because I am not familiar with that type of an almost militant way that people are pushed or rather demanded to tithe.
I understand why the author who followed your reply ( I apologize, I don't remember the name) was offended that any would give to a church at all. All I can say is, please don't lump us all together. We may be the minority but we truly do our best to give to all that we know are in need and to not be so caught up in the dollars and cents of it all. Most sincerely, Satch
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jennie

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money
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 04:49:24 PM »

Bobby, You did the right thing in helping those who cross your path. I am so sorry that your church was more concerned with your money thanwith you.
I have to tell you about a situation I found myself in. Long story short: We were in a large church that was taking in lots os money. My husband wasn't in the ministry at this time. I was working in the church office one summer and a man came in asking for help. He and his girlfriend had moved south for work because we have lots of mills here. They already had jobs, had rented a place to live and were really nice people. The mills here hold your pay back at least a week when you start your job. This couple had taken all they had to pay rent and buy gas to get from Kentucky. They had a little month old baby. All he was asking was gas money and if we could get them some groceries. At this church everything had to be approved by the pastor. He started yelling that we would not be contributing to sin because they weren't married so we would not help them. When I went back in the office the man was crying. He had heard all of it! He said he was sorry for getting me in trouble and not to worry about them. I only had 2 dollars with me so gave him that to get some gas with.

After they left, I was so mad! I took that preacher outside on the porch and told him to look all around as far as his eyes could see. I asked him how many people just within his line of sight were in need? He said we needed our money for a Family Life Center that was going to cost $1 million dollars and we only had 1/2 a million saved up! I told him that all the people around that church needed the money for their own family life.

When my husband heard what had happened he and I went to the couples' trailer and did what we should have. Needless to say, we were not welcomed there very much longer and I didn't care! People are much more important than buildings or money or anything. I don't think Jesus would have turned that little couple away. It almost makes me sick to my stomachjust to tell about this. We decided that we would never be involved in a church again such as that. We don't have much materially but we have peace in our hearts.
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love_magnified

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Money
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2006, 04:56:59 PM »

IS IT SUCH A STRANGE CONCEPT TO THINK THAT WE LOVE CHRIST BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US?!?!?!

Then when why is it so strange to think that showing compassion and kindness to non-Christians could lead them to repentance. Is it not the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance? And did Christ require anyone to not be a sinner BEFORE he sacrificed himself for them, or did he die for the ungodly while they were yet sinners and enemies.  :roll:

Your post has blessed me today.
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jennie

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money
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2006, 08:40:18 PM »

Yes Bobby, it is sickening. I don't mean to judge but I just can't understand why buildings are the everything instead of people. That sweet little couple offered to pay me and my husband back when they got paid. Of course we wouldn't hear of it. We told them to use their pay for what their baby needed. We kept up with them until they left the area so I hope things are going well for them. The pastor of that church we left told us we would never amount to anything and would be poor for the rest of our days for condoning "those people living in a sinful state" but we told him we didn't really care what he thought. You know Bobby, we have never gone hungry . We have what we need given us by the Father.

You seem to be a sincere and kind person and now you need to go get some of that "ucky" pink  medicine to soothe your stomach since I made you sick!!!!
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jennie

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money
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2006, 09:51:23 PM »

Thanks Bobby and I am glad you feel better and don't have to take that terribly , ucky medicine!
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shibboleth

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Money
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2006, 11:02:53 PM »

The fact that most people think church is a building or a meeting, shows how far from the Biblical truth most people are. The church is people, not buildings. Whenever a church building is destroyed in a fire, parishioners cry about their church being destroyed. I always think, no, you are the church. The building was destroyed, not the church. It is so hard to get people to see this. They have it drummed in their heads that you go to church every Sunday or Wednesday.
I went to a Presbyterian church and the pastor said that we weren't in church during Bible study or Sunday school. It was only when we were at the service where a sermon was given. He talked about the visible and invisible church. I asked him if we would be a church if noone was saved. He didn't know what to say. I always believed church was so much more than a Sunday meeting. Now I know I can have church here on this forum, on the phone, when I meet someone I can tell about my Lord or whatever.
Jennie, your story just broke my heart. Doesn't it sound like the Bible story about the good samaritan who was the only one who helped the helpless man who was unable to help himself. Doesn't the Bible say we are to help sinners, and maybe God will show them His wonderful love and they could see how much God loved them.  Isn't it the love of God that brings us to Him? His beautiful, all encompassing grace and mercy for us that is so irresistable. I see that in so many people here on this forum.
Your ex-pastor hasn't aclue about what God really values, if he believes a building is more important than feeding babies.
A woman I met on the bus needed some help with her home and I asked my ex-pastor if we could help her. He asked if she could pay us for our time. I almost burst a blood vessel. We had helped another man years earlier and noone asked him for money. I told the pastor this and he didn't say a word. We never did help her, but I am through with organized church. I am glad for a few here who have nice church people and pastors. My experience hasn't been as good. We just have to remember that church is about people, not programs, meetings, agendas, or buildings.







isn'
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jennie

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money
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2006, 09:06:27 AM »

Can you imagine what a different world this would be if we reached out to people that cross our path? Sometimes it doesn't even have to be financially but just a listening ear. Me and my husband met a man yesterday. Boy , did we have a day of drama! His parents are up in years so we have to do a lot for them but we do it with happy hearts because we still have them with us. We had to go to the pharmacy for some prescriptions for them and there was this rather young (maybe in his 30's) man there waiting also. I said Good Morning to him and we all got to talking. Turns out he has had 3 heart attacks and all his family but 2 brothers have died at young ages from this genetic heart problem they have. He is all alone in this  world now. He seemed starved for conversation so we all talked as we waited. When we got ready to go, he shook our hands and thanked us for talking to him. He said  most people just walk away. So many people are so lonely. As you all can tell from my post , I can talk forever! I told him where we lived and that he was welcome anytime and I would cook a pan of biscuits for him. He had told me he missed his Momma's biscuits. all people want is for us to take some time and really see them.
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jennie

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money
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2006, 09:23:28 AM »

Bobby, you and your family are welcome here anytime. Come on by and we'll all have biscuits and gravy together!
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Patrick

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Money
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2006, 10:25:33 AM »

Man, I love biscuits & gravy too. I'll be in Commerce, GA next weekend :wink:  

Very touching stories.
I was hauling motorcycles from Daytona back to Phoenix and pulled in to a rest area. As I stopped the truck, I noticed a man walking up to the cab. Normally, I am very cautious about this type of scenario, however this time I felt in my heart he needed help. I jumped out of the cab and locked the door (flesh coming out). He told me about being down on his luck, trying to get back to his family, and being very low on gasoline and no one in the rest area would help him. He needed fuel or money to get back to a station so he could continue on down the road.
This has happened several times.

There have also been times where I did not help someone and have this sick feeling in my gut for several hours. I actually walked away from a friend crying out for help so I could go have lunch with a girl. The lunch was not very good that day and I have not seen that girl again, nor have I seen that friend either.  :cry:

God bless ya'll, have a great day everyone!
Patrick
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YellowStone

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Re: money
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2006, 04:21:46 PM »

Quote from: jennie
Can you imagine what a different world this would be if we reached out to people that cross our path? Sometimes it doesn't even have to be financially but just a listening ear. Me and my husband met a man yesterday. Boy , did we have a day of drama! His parents are up in years so we have to do a lot for them but we do it with happy hearts because we still have them with us. We had to go to the pharmacy for some prescriptions for them and there was this rather young (maybe in his 30's) man there waiting also. I said Good Morning to him and we all got to talking. Turns out he has had 3 heart attacks and all his family but 2 brothers have died at young ages from this genetic heart problem they have. He is all alone in this  world now. He seemed starved for conversation so we all talked as we waited. When we got ready to go, he shook our hands and thanked us for talking to him. He said  most people just walk away. So many people are so lonely. As you all can tell from my post , I can talk forever! I told him where we lived and that he was welcome anytime and I would cook a pan of biscuits for him. He had told me he missed his Momma's biscuits. all people want is for us to take some time and really see them.


Jennie, If what you just stated is not "giving of yourself' (tithing) then I know not what is.

That was inspiring :)

Much love,

Darren
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