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Free Will
Kat:
Hi JDH,
I am trying to understand this line of thinking.
Maybe it is that God has made time as a reference for man to go by,
certainly God does not need time.
also God does make it appear to man that he has free will, but that is just an illusion.
I found this in Ray's 'Free Will- part C' article and also a email,
that seems like it could touch on this idea.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -----------------------------------------
THE KING OF ASSYRIA’S OBSCURED HEART
VERSUS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
Last time I said that I would show you in the Scriptures an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed free will, whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used. (The example of King Assyrian is in Isaiah 10:5-17:)
That section of Scripture is pretty much self-explanatory. This is a perfect example where God fills in the whys and wherefores of how He operated and worked with the king of Assyria to punish His people, Israel.
But this is also how God works with all kings and presidents, and heads of corporations, and heads of families, and all humanity. God “…works ALL according to the counsel of His Own will.” But just like the King of Assyria, not so is all humanity thinking in THEIR heart. They don’t believe that God uses them on a daily basis just as He did with the King of Assyria. That’s because:
“He [God] has made everything FITTING in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does from the beginning to the end.” (Ecc. 3:11).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html -------------------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain,or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Hope this was relative to you post :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello JDH
That does not necessitate that it be true outside of time, only in our own universe.
It is OUR OWN UNIVERSE that is mistaken, delusion, deception. We live in our own understanding and wisdom to our own detriment.
Remember Jesus Christ was fully man and fully Son of God. He always knew that He could do nothing without God. He told us we can do nothing without Him. Either we believe Him 100% or we make little deals with our rationality and believe only partially, subject to, and depending on etc. Either way, we fool ourselves if we begin to make compromises to suit our understanding and our own comfort zones.
Free will means uncaused will. There is NO such thing, NOT EVER. It is like saying the square is round in the water but oblong only in space. That's nonsence and this method in madness is what Mystery Babylon is adept at teaching. It is what gets many into the illusion of God only being partially Soveriegn. That is nonsence too! :D Subtle,...logical, plausable to our own ways of thinking.... but nonsence! ;D That is what makes it so highly toxic to understanding, because it makes you think you know something and off you go when in fact you haven't a clue! Half truths. They are the snakes venom without the bite. The firey dart that gets past having faith in Christ and what He says alone. The tare sown among the wheat looks real but it is an invader.
If you read the Myth of Free Will a few times more, you may catch sight of what I am trying to share with you. God's ways are not our ways no matter how reasonable we may think our view points are and no matter how reasonable they may appearto us or others. Our thinking is like seeing the illusion in the desert of the oasis. If you are thirsty you will see it alright but it is not real. I can see what you are seeing. It is a real argument but not one that will lead you to the true oasis and real living water of knowing that God is Sovereign. Hope you can see that.
I enjoyed your perspective Kat. Much encouragement in the scriptures you saw from where you are standing for all of us who suffer to be disciplined through suffering to enter the Kingdom only through trials etc.
Peace to you all
Arcturus. :)
Phazel:
--- Quote --- God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
--- End quote ---
This is what usually gets my head to explode.
If God says he creates evil and everything is for his purpose and what I am reading on Rays site is true..... Then what other conclusion can be reached but a man raping a little Girl is a part of Gods plan?
To say its not is to say that when a little girl gets raped God was surprised that it happened.
The thing I am beginning to wrap my measly brain around is that the emotional aspect of evil is not the point of that actually being right or wrong from the standpoint of Gods soverignty. But.. to be honest, at this point, I do not believe that we can understand why God does not want a little girl to be raped but it happened nevertheless according to his purpose.
I think I just had an anyurism.....
Kat:
Hi Phazel,
This is a very difficult thing to reconcile in our mind, that the evil things that happen are according to God's purpose.
I have come to Look at this world, as being the evil experience we all must go through, so that we will truly appreciate what God has in store for us later. I know we want to think we could be just as happy if we didn't have to go through this evil now, but God has determined differently, we need to experience this life (the good and evil) to really learn what we need to know.
We have to except that God knows what He is doing.
I believe when the life in this world is over and finished for all, and it is a relatively short life;
Jam 4:14 who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.
I believe the glory that awaits all of God creation, will make the time we had to spend in this world, a dim memory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
Here is another email of Ray's on this subject.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,224.0.html -----------------------------
Dear Marcus:
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. The must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclanation to commit horrible sins. This is God's creature, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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