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Author Topic: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations  (Read 6481 times)

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JDH

  • Guest
Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« on: December 11, 2006, 01:16:53 PM »

One of the founding principles of Evolutionary thought is that good mutations occur frequently enough to cause changes in species.  Not only changes in species, but changes enough to eventually mutate organisms similar to pond scum into alligators, elephants, sharks and even man.  In order to seriously consider this idea as anything but fanciful mysticism, one must study in depth what this idea entails.  First one must look at the idea of creating one “good” mutation.  This is quite similar to taking Shakespeare’s “to be are not to be” soliloquy and at some point chosen randomly, randomly typing letters.  What are the chances that what you have typed something that actually improves  Shakespeare’s soliloquy?  What are the chances that you actually typed something that make sense? This can actually be explored using numeric methods.  Clearly, the chances of adding errors to any text by randomly typing is high.  Now have any of these rare good mutations actually been seen?  Research it for yourself, don’t really on just what I’m telling you.  If you do, you will find the only good mutation referenced in all that we know about mankind is sickle cell anemia. No one with sickle cell anemia will tell you that it is a good mutation.  So we know that idea of good mutations is at the very least rare, if it exists at all.
   Now the next stage is taking all of these good mutations together to form something completely different. Now if the simplest single cell organism is like Shakespeare’s soliloquy, the human cell is like the Encyclopedia Brittanica.  Evolution uses as its basis, that by randomly typing at various location on Shakespeare’s soliloquy, at some point with solely the process of deleting anything that doesn’t make sense, you will come up with the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Now while as a statistician, I must acknowledge this as a possibility, the question then becomes how likely is it. Some scientists ignore that this is infinitely unlikely.  In fact what most scientists know is that order is not created by randomness. Let me give you an example.  If you have children, you know that they can get into stuff and break things.  Now let’s say you were to tell your children to just throw everything they can pick up randomly around.  When you got home, you would expect a big mess.  Now if we did an experiment where we had all the children of the world do this, would anyone come home to find that their house is more organized.  NO!!! Lets try an experiment, put a whole bunch of monkey to work. Their only job is to create a working well.  They are given wood and metal to put together into shovels. They are given all the bricks they could ever need, and they are given rope and a bucket. How many years would it take for say a hundred of them to make a well?  The answer is that they would never make a well.  More than likely they would put the bucket on their head get it stuck and bang around until it broke off.  This is because as everyone knows it takes intelligent planning to create anything useful. Let’s take another example.  If you see a mouse trap in the woods, would you wonder how the mouse trap came to be?  Everyone with a brain would say that a man created that mouse trap.  Now is there metal in the woods?  Yes.  Is there wood in the woods? DUH.  Is it possible that the metal and the wood by some freak tornado came together to form this mouse trap, with of course the little writing on the back that says “Made in china”? Well I guess its possible, but I don’t think I could ever convince an intelligent person that this is what occurred.  Very simply, useful things are not created from randomness. This all begs the question “If some of our smartest scientists can figure out how to create a rocket to transport people to the moon, but can not figure out how to create one living cell from nonliving material, then how complicated is it to do such a thing?”  Would you believe that something much more complicated than a spaceship was created by random processes, yet not believe my story about how the mouse trap came to be?  Would you ever go to Rome and say “its looks like a bunch of monkeys got together and randomly threw around some bricks.”?  If so please contact me I have some beautiful swamp land to sell you.
   We are not randomly mutated pond scum.  Let me say this again, WE ARE NOT RANDOMLY MUTATED POND SCUM.  We are the creations of God.  You cannot truly argue the scientific merits of evolution because it has none.  Scientists only argue this because their only other option is a divine creator. One would only hold on to this idea because one does not want to believe in God.  If we are just randomly mutated pond scum, then when I cheated on my history exam I didn’t do anything wrong.  The bad things that happen in life are just random events, not God punishing me or just not caring about me. 
   THIS IS WRONG!!!  We have a purpose for life.  We are here to learn to love.  When God breathed life into us we gained a portion of his nobility. This can be seen everywhere.  People risking their lives to save others, firefighters, teachers, military members, police officers, the regular Joe on the street all sacrifice of themselves for others.  We have inside of ourselves such nobility that is truly unparalleled by the angels of heaven.  There is no greater love than this, that a man gives his life for the life of his friend.  Not even the angels in heaven can have the nobility that we all have inside of us. 
Claim this birthright!  Claim this nobility!  Do not deny it because life is hard.  Life is hard, but nothing worth having comes easy.  Life is our opportunity to truly learn what love is.  Should this lesson be learned easily?  How valuable to us would it be if it was an easy lesson?  How can we demonstrate love without sacrifice?  How strong is our love if it cannot withstand trials and tribulations?  We say things like “How can God be perfect if there is so much wrong with this world?”  Therein lies your answer.  This is not a perfect world, but it is a perfect proving ground.  We have a limited time so as to compel us to concentrate on what is important.  It is extremely difficult so as to strengthen us.  There are many tests of our character.  We are given time to reflect on what we have done wrong and time to change. Our opportunities to learn from our failures are even more numerous that our successes.  You must stay vigilant because you never know when the next test might come.  This is truly the perfect proving ground.  Yet I tell you one and all that you are all equal to the task.  We have in all of us the nobility unmatched by the angels.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.  These are your only true goals.  When you fail, as we all do, learn from your failure. Do not get down on yourself or think yourself unworthy, you have some of God’s nobility running through your blood.  Get back up and try harder. When life knocks you down, as life knocks all of us down frequently, do not indulge in self-pity.  Find that nobility in yourself, use it as an opportunity grow mentally and spiritually.
   YOU ARE NOT MUTATED POND SCUM!!!  YOU ARE THE CREATION OF THE ALMIGHTY AND YOU HAVE THE NOBILITY GREATER THAN THAT OF THE ANGELS. LOVE GOD FIRST.  LOVE OTHERS.  LOVE YOURSELF.
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 01:45:04 PM »

JDH,

  This was a great post.  I am wondering what would you think about evolution with Intelligent Design.  God has guided us in our lives, why could he not guide the evolutionary process?  Is evolution with Intelligent Design possible?  This is one of the areas that I am learning.  I do not believe in blind evolution but am leaning to evolution that was guided by a loving God.  I do not know if I am far off in the mark or not.

  Evolution only makes sense with God guiding it.  What is your feedback on this?  I would really like to know.

  [This is not meant to begin a debate.  Just to gather information.]

  Thanks.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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JDH

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 02:19:19 PM »

That's a very good question.  I don't really know. You could be right or God could have done it another way.   But then again I don't think we really have to know.  Its kind of like knowing exactly how a VCR works.  Its interesting trivia maybe, but I can work a VCR with no knowledge of its inner working. In much the same way, all people know our purpose for life, that is to learn to love.  The happiest people in life are not those with the most money or the most popular.  They are people who have love in their heart. People on their deathbed wish they would have shown more forgiveness and love, not worked more hours or made more money. Our purpose on this Earth is so apparent. People who are athiest or choose to except this evolution with no cause and no God, choose to do so for selfish reasons not scientifc reasons.
As long as you can work towards your purpose in  life, knowing how it all came to be is like learning the inner working of the VCR so you can record your favorite show.  Know that God created you and loves you.  More so than you could ever love him back.  He put you on this Earth to strengthen your love not to harm you. We are all noble and can come through this arduous test stronger in love.
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 02:51:09 PM »

JDH,

  I really like your reply and it exhorted me to attain a more noble purpose in my life.  It is good that God created all things and us.  Someday we will know how that is done.  As for now, it is certainly an interesting premise to consider whether God used evolution or not.  Yet, I need not be distracted by this in my pursuit of higher things such as the wonderful truths that are posted on this site everyday.

  You are absoultely right about people choosing to be atheists.  I was one for a long time and very bitter to Christains and others of religious thinking.  I did not realize how much of I was believing in that was not pure science - if there is such a thing as that term -.  I was only doing that becuase I loved the idea that I did not have to be held accountable to anyone for my actions and could use others to attain my idea.  Wow, I have had a long and ardorous journey from there to this point.  I am so glad that I am now in the truth.  I realize that I know a whole let less than I "knew" when I was an athiest.

  Thanks for your reply.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2006, 03:03:36 PM »



My question is if faith would require scientific proof?

That said, this is a great site.

http://www.trueorigin.org/

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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 03:19:49 PM »

Phazel,

  Yeah I scanned that website.  It's going to take a few days to read through everything on that site.  Looks to be good.  I am impresed by some of the topics that are on there.  I was glad that I saw some Intelligent Design websites.

  Thanks for posting this.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuie
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 04:52:56 PM »

Here is another good one.

http://www.naturalselection.0catch.com/


Yeah, there is alot of material on both sites.  Trust me,  you will miss alot of information there if you try to just glance over the articles.    Most information there is not alot of rambling, but well researched facts within the scientific community that do not get much exposure, unfortunatly.




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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2006, 07:29:32 PM »

"You cannot truly argue the scientific merits of evolution because it has none."
AMEN!!!

Thanks for the post.

Another thought: It has taken intelligent human beings (not monkeys with typewriters) years to decode the genetic code. How pray tell did it get encoded in the first place? No atheist/evolutionist can give a logical scientific answer to this question.

God bless you all.
Andrevan.
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fe32k

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 07:30:36 PM »

It takes more faith to believe in Evolution that it would to believe in a Soveriegn God. How in the world do millions of species of organisms evolve into millions of others, which would suggest millions of transitional through millions of years and yet escape from the fossil record? MILLIONS! Where is that elusive transitional fossil? The evolutionist would go crazy to find one! when in fact they should have in their possession at least a few thousand.
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 09:00:40 PM »

JDH,

  This was a great post.  I am wondering what would you think about evolution with Intelligent Design.  God has guided us in our lives, why could he not guide the evolutionary process?  Is evolution with Intelligent Design possible?  This is one of the areas that I am learning.  I do not believe in blind evolution but am leaning to evolution that was guided by a loving God.  I do not know if I am far off in the mark or not.

  Evolution only makes sense with God guiding it.  What is your feedback on this?  I would really like to know.

  [This is not meant to begin a debate.  Just to gather information.]

  Thanks.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

Dear Anne,

here’s the thing: evolution is a myth (just like free will). Evolution does not scientifically work and cannot scientifically work. God does not need evolution to create anything, He does not need a myth.

As Christians we can have complete faith that God (through His Son) did perform the instant creation of all life. God spoke everything into existence. Therefore we can throw away evolution with confidence, we don’t need it. Only atheists need it.

I’m always reminded of how Jesus instantly created fish for the disciples in Luke 5:1-10 & John 21:1-11. He did not require millions of years or evolution to do it.

May God continue to guide you into all truth.  :)
Andrevan.
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 09:06:51 PM »

Andrevan,

  Yep you are right.  And it is a good thing that he did not need a million years to do so, or else the multitudes would have died.  I got a sick sense of humor.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire
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Pax Vobiscum

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2006, 01:50:09 AM »

It is quite interesting what falls under behavior condoned on this board and what is condemned as outside the bounds of the allowable discussion, but I digress....

I believe that belief in God and acknowledgement of science is not only possible, but a requirement for the modern believer.

Peace
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2006, 06:18:20 AM »

I believe that belief in God and acknowledgement of science is not only possible, but a requirement for the modern believer.

Peace

I tend to agree with your statement in a way. We live by faith not by sight, we don't necessarily require physical evidence for everything. "Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed;" Hebrews 11:1[clv].

For a Christian to believe in evolution would require them to accept philosophical and mythological ideas that contradict what real world experimental science shows. Christianity is rational and grounded in history, evolution is grounded in philosophy and pseudoscience. Experimental science is on the side of Christians, however, they've been falsely lead to believe otherwise. Just some of my observations from the real world.

God bless.
Andrevan.
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2006, 11:04:04 AM »

Quote
Therefore we can throw away evolution with confidence, we don’t need it. Only atheists need it.


Here is the larger problem with that and Michael Behe sums it up better that I can in this article.

http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_ksnytb81399.htm




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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2006, 02:41:07 PM »

Hello Pax

You wrote :  It is quite interesting what falls under behavior condoned on this board and what is condemned as outside the bounds of the allowable discussion, but I digress....

I believe that belief in God and acknowledgement of science is not only possible, but a requirement for the modern believer.

Peace


I have seen web pages and alternate teachings get posed on the Forum with dire consequences. For me our like-mindedness is found in the fact that we agree with the teachings as presented through Ray Smith. Those who are not able to understand, find in the Forum a place where they can be encouraged and counselled and edified to assist them find meaning and understanding in the Ray Smith teachings. This opens up the opportunity for us all to encourage and fellowship and share what we have been taught. With Modification, we are then able to walk peacefully together in companionship with the truth.

Also, the report to Moderator item in each post section, allows us to assist the Mods where we may see interference or off sided approaches which the Mods then can umpire. This way we can alert the Mods who may not have caught up yet to the fact that a thread is going sour or is in need of some supportive authority to keep things on the up and up.

Also, I have found that these interferences are also opportunities to exercise our discernment. Is the error in innocence, from a teachable spirit or is it in deliberation to cause strife and division? It is an interesting learning curve to see how the Mods respond to having to deliver an error correction or simple reminder of Forum rules of participation and how it is received, rejected or contested sometimes vigorously right into the PM section!... Which ever way….

"God works all things together for those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose." Rom 8 : 28 :)

I  find Rays response to this subject helpful in demystifying the deviancy and myth as Andrevan also notes.

Here is how Ray responds to an e-mail. Quote…

October 15, 2006-12-12

Hi Ray
What do you think of Darwinism and how do you refute it, in a few words? Thanks.
Tom from CT

Dear Tom:

Charles Darwin did not himself believe in Darwinism Evolution. He admitted that his theories were not plausible.

How is that for a few words?

God be with you,

Ray.


Peace be with you

Arcturus :)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2006, 02:45:52 PM »

Hello JDH

You wrote :  We have a purpose for life.  We are here to learn to love.  When God breathed life into us we gained a portion of his nobility. This can be seen everywhere.  People risking their lives to save others, firefighters, teachers, military members, police officers, the regular Joe on the street all sacrifice of themselves for others.  We have inside of ourselves such nobility that is truly unparalleled by the angels of heaven.  There is no greater love than this, that a man gives his life for the life of his friend.  Not even the angels in heaven can have the nobility that we all have inside of us. 
Claim this birthright!  Claim this nobility!  Do not deny it because life is hard.  Life is hard, but nothing worth having comes easy.  Life is our opportunity to truly learn what love is.  Should this lesson be learned easily?  How valuable to us would it be if it was an easy lesson?  How can we demonstrate love without sacrifice?  How strong is our love if it cannot withstand trials and tribulations?  We say things like “How can God be perfect if there is so much wrong with this world?”  Therein lies your answer.  This is not a perfect world, but it is a perfect proving ground.  We have a limited time so as to compel us to concentrate on what is important.  It is extremely difficult so as to strengthen us.  There are many tests of our character.  We are given time to reflect on what we have done wrong and time to change. Our opportunities to learn from our failures are even more numerous that our successes.  You must stay vigilant because you never know when the next test might come.  This is truly the perfect proving ground.  Yet I tell you one and all that you are all equal to the task.  We have in all of us the nobility unmatched by the angels.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.  These are your only true goals.  When you fail, as we all do, learn from your failure. Do not get down on yourself or think yourself unworthy, you have some of God’s nobility running through your blood.  Get back up and try harder. When life knocks you down, as life knocks all of us down frequently, do not indulge in self-pity.  Find that nobility in yourself, use it as an opportunity grow mentally and spiritually.
   YOU ARE NOT MUTATED POND SCUM!!!  YOU ARE THE CREATION OF THE ALMIGHTY AND YOU HAVE THE NOBILITY GREATER THAN THAT OF THE ANGELS. LOVE GOD FIRST.  LOVE OTHERS.  LOVE YOURSELF.

This section of your presentation I treat separately because it appears as separate from the topic of Evolution that began your discussion.

In the above section of your teaching or belief that you present the only parts I can agree with are …”God breathed life into us….” And
There is no greater love than this, that a man gives his life for the life of his friend. and… Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbour as yourself.

I  disagree with  the teaching or belief that we should love ourselves. For me self-esteem  is the most  undetected anti-Christ  heresy of our times that has wide support in the worldly systems of psychology, school education, business competition and carnal life teachings of which there are many books in the New York best sellers list that have come from TBN preachers. The wisdom of the world is to God foolishness.

For those who are curious and have the time I’d like to suggest that you do a little exercise. This may help you see what I am seeing if you are interested. JDH, if you  re-read what you have presented in your post with the following amendments…. Where the word love comes up, put the word God in its place AND where you see the word God, put the word Love in ITS place…. you may be astounded at what you see! What I hope it shows you is that we can do nothing without God and to believe we can or should try or to teach others to try is absurd because it is God who is Love NOT us.

For me, Gods  plan is that we experience being UN-like Him first until we come through painful experience to the understanding that we can do  nothing without Him. As for “learning to love”… Relatively speaking, sure, we can learn but in the Absolute sense, it is God alone who makes it happen and is doing just that via His plan and His purposes in accordance to the council of His will! We are here to learn to love, for me is like saying we are here to learn to God…... Yes….many are trying that one!

As for our purpose, LOF has taught me that we are here because God is creating Sons and Daughters. As and when we do love, for me, is a consequence and direct result of Gods work in us, not any nobility in us, but His work in us.

1 John 4 : 4 Little children, you are of God, you belong to Him and have already defeated and overcome them, the agents of the anti-Christ, because He Who lives in you is greater, mightier than he who is in the word.

HE Who lives in us is NOT subject TO us or ever will or EVER can be. Can you see that to teach that HE who lives in us is subject to us is heresy? We have NO claim on God nor EVER will have. God IS Sovereign. We cannot use Him. To think we can or should is to share in the cup held in the hand of Mystery Babylon who’s errors are subtle, and who’s teachings sound good, plausible, defensible and acceptable. They are not any of these things and that takes some getting used to. I have found the teaching on Bible Truths and the LOF series to be of great assistance. :)

Peace to you all

Arcturus :)

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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2006, 03:31:30 PM »

To all,

  I was a little disturbed to see Phazel's remark on he is surprised to see what behvior or discussion is condoned in being allowed to be discuess the forum.

  To the Moderators out there, is this an unacceptable topic?  If so, I will refrain from posting any more in the topic.  It is not my purpose to unsettle or debate and I would not want to post if it would cause any to go astray.

  Thanks.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2006, 04:06:48 PM »

That wasn't my comment.   That was Pax.
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Mutated Pond Scum or Divine Creations
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2006, 07:07:50 PM »

Quote
Therefore we can throw away evolution with confidence, we don’t need it. Only atheists need it.
Here is the larger problem with that and Michael Behe sums it up better that I can in this article.

http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_ksnytb81399.htm

Hi Phazel, thanks for the link.

I could have been clearer in my statement, which was in reference to Christians believing in evolution, not about it being taught or not. What I was implying was that we don’t need evolution in Christian theology/doctrine (especially those of us who’ve found the hidden truth revealed by Ray et al), as it doesn’t even scientifically work. Christians need not compromise their faith with it; it’s just not worth it.

Behe makes some good points. Natural selection only works on pre-existing creatures, it doesn’t create new ones and is actually a mechanism that works against the evolution of all life from a primordial cell(s). Just another nail in the evolutionary coffin.

God bless.
Andrevan.
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Oopsies!
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2006, 07:47:38 PM »

To Phaezal,

  I am sorry that I quoted you as saying something, I meant Pax.  I just got the names mixed up.  Please accept my humble apologies.

  Thanks.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

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