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Author Topic: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day  (Read 3506 times)

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« on: December 13, 2006, 10:42:20 AM »

Greetings to all,

  I just read "Which Bible is Best" on Ray's website and found the following.

 "TAKING FROM GOD’S WORD:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God…" (Rom. 8:28).

Oh really? Is this verse from the King James Version even true? How many billions of times has this verse been quoted, and it isn’t even true! Things do NOT "work together for good." That is absurd. "THINGS" can’t do anything by themselves. Just what is it that the King James has left out of this verse which has turned a grand and marvelous Spiritual Truth into a carnal-minded heresy? Why, just "GOD," that’s all. They left GOD out of this verse. And here is how God inspired this verse:

"And we know that GOD works together all things for Good to the (ones) loving God…" (Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, By J P. Green, Sr).

‘Now we are aware that GOD is working all together for the good of those who are loving God…" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"We know, further, that unto them who love God, GOD causes all things to work together for good…" (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible).

Putting "God" back into this verse, puts the Truth back into this verse."


  Believe me I have been waiting for things to work out for the good.  I love God, so I thought hah I got my houseclesning and washing dishes taken care of.  LOL.  Now, I understand it.   Maybe God can work "me" for the good of my house to get cleaned.   ;D

  I did not know that "God" had been taken out of the verse.  I have quoted this Scripture many times and most recently into a post to SandyFla I believe.  This is why I have had so much trouble in  believing this verse.  Something deep down inside me knew that this verse was intrinsically wrong.  This one little word makes ALL the difference.  What a freedom there is not having to believe that "things" will workk out but that God will cause all things to work out.  Now this is something that I can believe in and rest assured in.  This I am taking to the proverbial bank.

  Thought this would all interest you and bless you as it has me.

  Have a great day.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 11:30:36 AM by rrammfcitktturjsp »
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SandyFla

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 01:17:09 PM »

Something deep down inside me knew that this verse was intrinsically wrong.  This one little word makes ALL the difference.  What a freedom there is not having to believe that "things" will workk out but that God will cause all things to work out.  Now this is something that I can believe in and rest assured in.  This I am taking to the proverbial bank.

Great post, Anne! No "thing" can happen without God allowing it, so it is indeed God who causes all things to work for our good.

Wishing you a blessed day,
Sandy
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YellowStone

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 02:05:55 PM »

Anne, you bring up a very good point, but unfortunatly, only one side if it. :)

Rev 22:18
  • For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


You wrote: 

I did not know that "God" had been taken out of the verse.  I have quoted this Scripture many times and most recently into a post to SandyFla I believe.  This is why I have had so much trouble in  believing this verse.  Something deep down inside me knew that this verse was intrinsically wrong.  This one little word makes ALL the difference.  What a freedom there is not having to believe that "things" will workk out but that God will cause all things to work out.  Now this is something that I can believe in and rest assured in.  This I am taking to the proverbial bank.


To be fair, how do you know that the word "GOD" was taken out? Could not in all fairness the reverse be asked? Why was the word "GOD" added to these other translations?

I have read what Ray states and agree with him 100% that of course "things" do not behave of "their" own accord, and that it is God who works all "things." However, in my search of original Greek Scripture, I have not been able to locate the word "God" in the position as described by the bibles mentioned by Ray. here is another reputable translation that does not add "God" to the passage

Romans 8:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
  • 28  - And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;


So let's take the King James rendition in context:

Rom 8:27-29 
  • 27  - And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
  • 28  - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
  • 29  - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


The whole passage is about God, I have never taken this Scripture to mean anything other than "God works all things for the good of them..."
 
So please do not take this post wrong. If you or any one can show me any Greek Scripture that supports the wordage supported by Ray, then please correct me. :)

Here is reference to Rom 8:28 that supports the King James & Youngs. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rom&chapter=8&verse=28&version=KJV#28 I have another from my Interlinear Hewbrew/Greek that I cannot quote from because I am at work.

Thanks Anne, :)
God is love

Darren
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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 02:10:25 PM »

Darren,

  Thanks for writing this post.  I will certainly look up the Greek if it exists.

  No offense taken.  It is good to look at the other side, course I really never considered the other side.  Thanks for keeping me open-minded.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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Kat

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 02:21:54 PM »


Hi Darren,

I found all these on my e-Sword.

Rom 8:28

(Rotherham) We know, further, that, unto them who love God, God causeth all things to work together for good,—unto them who, according to purpose, are such as he hath called;

(NASB)  And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

(GNB)  We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose.

(CLV) Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose"

(CEV)  We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,

mercy, peace, and love
Kat




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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 02:28:38 PM »

Hi Kat,

  I may be asking an obvious question here, but what is E-sword?  And what is the link?


  Thanks.




  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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Kat

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 03:03:52 PM »


hi Anne,

E-Sword is a site,

http://www.e-sword.net/

that offer a free online download to create your own source for Bible study.
They have many Bibles, commentaries, and other study aids for free download.

There is also the blueletter Bible site, that has much there too.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

These have been great helps to me, glad to show you where to get them  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 04:04:45 PM »

Kat,

  Thanks a lot for these.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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YellowStone

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 04:54:49 PM »

Kat Wrote:

Hi Darren,

I found all these on my e-Sword.

Rom 8:28

(Rotherham) We know, further, that, unto them who love God, God causeth all things to work together for good,—unto them who, according to purpose, are such as he hath called;

(NASB)  And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

(GNB)  We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose.

(CLV) Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose"

(CEV)  We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


Hi Kat,

Thanks for taking the time to look up these; however, I was seeking the original Greek Scripture, not some translators attempt of adding or subtracting words.

What I mean is that every modern day Bible SHOULD HAVE it's roots from the original Greek Scriptual Text. It is this text that I want to see. :)

I'm really not interested in what is implied contexually as any word added or subtracted to help is still a word added or taken away. God forbade this.

However, in the defense of Romans 8:28, it is my humble opinion that the context is not / was not changed by adding or removing the word "God" in that section.

We can only know if the word was added or taken away if we see the original text from which the said Bible is taken. This is still of a mute point, because we cannot know what exactly the original writers penned. God is love and we have love in our hearts. Do any here believe that Romans 8:28, with or without the word "GOD" is pivotal to finding, learning and knowing the truth?

Especially when we consider the fact that truth comes from God and we only see it (parts of) when God opens our hearts to it.

Man....I ramble   :(

Thanks Kat,

Love,
Darren
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longhorn

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 11:51:10 PM »

Anne, My ex- wife told me to rrammfcitkturjsr once.

Love in Christ

Longhorn

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2006, 01:00:38 AM »

Longhorn,

  I am sorry, I am a little confused with your post.  Could you please clarify?

  Oh and do you like University of Texas by the way?  It's a long shot, but how did you come up with your name?

  Thanks.


  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2006, 08:27:24 AM »

Hello Darren

You wrote : I'm really not interested in what is implied contextually…..

For me that comment puts you onto pretty thin ice allegorically speaking. Consider what you may be waving aside …..

From LOF part 8


A TRANSLATION ILLUSTRATION
My wife Manuela, is German. I asked her if they have a saying in Germany that is the same as one that I gave to her in English. She said, "Yes, but we don’t say it that way." Well, I asked her how they do say it, and she replied:
"WAS DU NICHT WEISST
MACH DICH NICHT HEISS"
Okay. What is that in English? First she informed me the Germans choose these specific words to express this old colloquial saying, because it rhymes so nicely. Here is an exact word for word translation into English:
"WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW
MAKES YOU NOT HOT"
That’s a word for word translation, but as you can plainly hear, in English the rhyme is gone. And we don’t normally speak that way in English either, so the second line of word order must be changed:
"WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW
DOESN’T MAKE YOU HOT"
Now we might contend that this is an accurate translation, but certainly not a good translation. A few of you might not as yet even know what the English counterpart of this saying is. And that is because translating also involves INTERPRETING.
We do, in deed, have a similar saying in America, to this saying in Germany. But in the American version, many would not understand it unless we change a word or two. Now we do have a similar saying in America with the same general thought and wording, and so we would properly translate this old Germany saying as follows:
"WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW
WON’T HURT YOU"
It sounds just as strange to Germans when they hear our version: "won’t hurt you" as it sounds strange to us when we hear "doesn’t make you hot." Actually the German version of this colloquial saying is more precise to the truth than is our American version. There are many things that you might not know or be aware of that can hurt you. One could have cancer and not know it, but it sure could be hurtful to your body. But in Germany they are more precise in that what one doesn’t know doesn’t make one "hot." Or as we might say in English: "hot under the collar." Or make us flush or blush by raising our blood pressure. The emotional reaction of getting "hot" comes from knowing something, not from not knowing something.
Anyway, I hope that everyone reading this paper can see, from this simple example, that a perfect error-free translation of Hebrew and Greek into English is NOT POSSIBLE! There will always be minor or major changes in the interpretation when translating. This is one reason why Peter tells us that no Scripture is its OWN INTERPRETATION. We must compare Scripture with Scripture. Likewise, we must have TWO witnesses of Scripture before a binding truth is established.


Unquote

Then you wrote your reason for not being interested in implications that are presented contextually is because  : as any word added or subtracted to help is still a word added or taken away. God forbade this.

Relative v/s Absolute

Ecc 3 : 14 I know that whatever God does, it endures forever; nothing can be added to it nor anything taken from it.

Rev 22 : 18-10 God forbade “Adding to “ or “taking away from” His word.

Understanding context is a skill that I also  associate with understanding that the scriptures do not contradict as shown in Ray's teachings on Absolute v/s Relative also detailed in the LOF teachings.

Can you truly say that you believe,  suggest,  endorse and stand by your opinion that the presence or absence of the word God in Rom 8: is according to your belief and how you see this scripture that according to you the context is not / was not changed by adding or removing the word "God" . 

From LOF part 7

IS THE KING JAMES BIBLE INERRANT?
Many feel that the King James Bible is "inerrant" (incapable of error). It is, in fact, a doctrine of some denominations. There have been over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND changes in the King James Bible. Most of them are relatively minor changes such as spelling, grammar, etc. Nonetheless, I think all should agree that any translation requiring a hundred thousand corrections hardly could be called perfect and inerrant. In the front of my 1611 Edition of the King James there is an eleven-page dissertation entitled: "THE TRANSLATORS To The Reader." And in it the translators freely confess their inability to translate the Scriptures flawlessly.
This 1611 KJV also has notes in the margins. Unfortunately, these have all been removed from most modern printings. Hundreds of times you will find in the margin, notes stating what the Hebrew or Greek literally said even though they saw fit to translate it otherwise. I am not criticizing this practice. Often it is necessary because it is not possible to translate word for word and have it make sense in English. Most of the corrections made over the centuries have been positive, however, there still remains a few major errors the desperately need correction. Example: the words "hell" and "eternal" have no equivalent in either the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts! (Read the first ten pages of my Letter to John Hagee on this site).


Do you really represent the belief that the inclusion or the subtraction of the word God in this text has no bearing on the meaning of the text or context.   Are you  saying that you believe that the meaning is the same whether the written word says that  it is THINGS that work together compared to the real translation wherein it is taught that it is NOT THINGS working THINGS out but it is GOD working out THINGS. 

From LOF part 8

One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:
"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).


Also if you have read all of Ray’s writings, and if you agree with the teachings contained therein, you should have no problem with what is shared for our encouragement, edification and exhortation. Ecc 3 ; 14 says that …. And God does it so that men will reverently fear HIM, revere and worship Him knowing that He is.

As I understand it, the entire book of Ester does not mention the word “God” in the entire text. This is not an omission! This is how it was written. It is an omission to render the word God obsolete in the verse Rom 8: 28. That is an error that e-sword refutes with evidence as brought forward for our edification, encouragement and exhortation.

Arcturus


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andrevan

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2006, 09:39:40 AM »

Ray's excellent discussion of 2 Corinthians 5:21 should be a reminder to us that a word for word translation is not always a proper translation and that translators don't always get it right. "Offering" was not in the Greek manuscripts, many translaters know it should be in there as Ray clearly shows. In a similar way Green's Hebrew/Greek Interlinear has "God" in Romans 8:28, although this time the word IS in the Greek many translaters will not render it correctly translated when compared to the thrust of the rest of Scripture.
Here's a word for word from the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer: Rom 8:28: "we-have-perceived yet that to-the ones-loving the GOD all is-together-acting [the GOD] into good to-the-ones according-to before-placing called being"

Peace and love to all.
Andrevan.
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M_Oliver

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2006, 11:15:29 AM »

The Wescott-Hort GNT on e-sword has G2316 {theos-God} twice in this verse as do many of the translations that KAT posted.

Mark
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jerry

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2006, 09:37:57 PM »

Anne;I never noticed that It is so true,things dont just work out but god works them out for us to our good...Awsome!....Jerry
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gmik

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Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2006, 02:46:34 AM »

Anne, My ex- wife told me to rrammfcitkturjsr once.

Love in Christ

Longhorn



 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Be nice to the newbies, they don't know you like we do!!!
Anne, he is a big kidder.

gena
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Romans 8:28 - My revelation for the day
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2006, 09:27:16 AM »

Gena,

  I know now he is a big kidder due to other posts.  He's great to read.  I always look forward to his posts.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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