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Author Topic: kill or don't kill - does God change?  (Read 16269 times)

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gmik

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2007, 11:10:58 PM »

I just re read this entire thread.  Boy it is good.  It has clarified things for me.  Now, I will re read it again and take notes.  You know, some of our threads are really full of scripture & insight then they get buried and forgotten!

love,
gena
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2007, 01:05:10 AM »



If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.

Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus).† If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.

There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.

"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general.† There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not."†

There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.

Help me out, here.

Peace

Dear Pax.

An important thing to remember is that God never changes His mind. It was always His intention to have this course for humanity. For some of us is appears that God changes, but it was always His intention to do what He does.

God has preordained the changes within His divine plan, however, it does not follow that He changes or changes His mind or objective. It was always the Father's intention for His Son to become a man and die for humanity's sins and to prove to them that He loves them. The plan does not change, the changes are the plan. The objective does not change.
This is how I understand it.

Kat's analogy is a good one.

Love and peace to you.
Andrevan.

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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2007, 01:34:36 AM »

To all who have responded to this thread,

  You providing all the anaologies have really helped out.  That was ingenious of you all to do that.  Thanks for posting and explaining.  Yes I agree with Joe, I am glad that we can speak our different opinions without digressing into unbecoming behavoir.  You all have won so much respect with this thread.  Keep up the good work.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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TimothyVI

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2007, 07:45:26 PM »

At least for me the question of whether God changed or not has been cleared up. He didn't change,
He was always all of the things that we have seen in Him.
After sorin asked a question three days ago we have used almost three whole pages answering each others
questions.

Don't get me wrong. I have really enjoyed what has been said, and have personally learned quite a bit.
But I don't think anyone has answered Sorin's real question.
 but when He tells us to:

>" 'smite them, take the women unto thyself' then says 'thou shalt not kill,
> thou shalt not commit adultery/rape' I just don't see how He 'Changes not'
> and how that isn't contradictory one to the other.
>
> I mean He gave some permission to kill and commit adultery, then tells us to
> not even think it, or look at a woman to lust after her rather, and to turn
> the other cheek."

Sorin did not seem to be asking if God changed, as much as he was asking why God gave
contradictory commands. Now it is easy to say that He didn't change because He was
always contradictory from the beginning. I know that is ludicrous, It borders on blasphemy and I certainly would never say it. But the question still begs an answer. Why did he tell people
that they should never do something, and then command them to do that very thing.

Kat, In your analogy you were raising your children to be good kids. In doing so you had to change your methods based on their age and maturity as well as the circumstances at the time. But your anology would have more closely fit with Sorin's question if you had said that you taught your three children that they should never
fight or steal, and then told them to go next door and beat up the little girl over there and
bring her bicycle back to your house. And then declare that it was O.K. because you gave them permission to do so.

Do you think that your children would understand the distintion between when it was O.K. to steal and when it was not?

Therein lies sorin's confusion. And Ray did not answer him by saying that the commandment is "thou shall not murder", not "thou shall not kill".

Well, as I said earlier, I am totally at peace with my understanding of whether or not God changes now.
I still do not understand why his commands were contradictory. It was sort of like He was saying, do as I say, not as I do.
There are some things that I just have to accept and move on I guess.

You are truly a God blessed group of individuals. Thank you for being here, and thank Ray for providing this forum.

Tim
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 07:52:17 PM by TimothyVI »
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2007, 09:00:01 PM »

Hi Tim.

The way I see the answer to Sorin's questions is as follows:

God is the law giver. He is also sovereign. They can only "break" His laws when He gives them the permission to do so. At this point they are no longer breaking His law. God is above His law.

When they broke His commandements without specific permission, they became lawbreakers and sinners. There is no contradiction in God and what He says or does. Without the law there is no sin.
God has the sovereign right to "override" His law to them when He requires something to be brought about.

This is how I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong ;)

God bless you all.
Andrevan.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2007, 09:27:20 PM »

Hi Tim,

Well the analogy was one way to look at it.

So in the OT and what God had Israel do, was a shadow or example for us.
As Israel destroyed the pagan nations, wouldn't that mean, this should also happen again? †

God hardened there hearts, and they came against Israel, who destroyed them.

Jos 11:20 †For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts so that they should come against Israel in battle, so that they might be destroyed, so that they might have no favor, but that He might destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.

This is speaking of the Day of the Lord, this has yet to happen. †

Isa 13:4 †The noise of a multitude in the mountains, as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together; Jehovah of Hosts gathers an army for the battle.
Isa 13:5 †They come from a far country, from the end of the heavens, Jehovah and the weapons of His indignation, to destroy all the land.
Isa 13:6 †Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Dan 2:44 †And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Zec 12:9 †And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This sounds very similar to what Israel did to the pagan as they took over the land.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2007, 09:40:53 PM »

Hi All.

Although Katís analogy is a good one, it is not perfect and only goes so far.

In response to Tim's modification to Katís analogy, we need to remember that the parent is not completely sovereign. The parent did not create the other little girl, nor did the parent create the bicycle. The parent does not own everything and did not create everything. The parentís rights are therefore limited. The parent is also not perfect or completely just. God is both perfect and just.

The pivotal point is sovereignty.

In reality God is completely & fully sovereign. God is not limited. He is the very creator and owner of every single thing in every single dimension in the universe and beyond. He therefore can do as He pleases. He is the Sovereign God!† :)

Hope this helps.

God bless.
Andrevan.
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Sorin

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2007, 12:50:54 AM »

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many replies and I'm glad things didn't get out of hand and that the thread didn't get locked or deleted or anything. I really need to read this thread over starting with my first post and everyone's replies, and I need to meditate on it for a while.

I just have so many things on my mind right now it's hard for me to focus on just one thing. When I first registered to this site again I was really 'on fire' for The Lord sort of speak, but now I don't know....

Take care,
Sorin
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hebrewroots98

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2007, 02:57:49 AM »

Dear Sorin,
Be of good cheer; this is MEAT!  Do not try to take too much right now, b/c ..."all things work to gether for the good of those who have been called according to His purose..."  No matter what, God is going to be in charge of wether HE opens your eyes to these things right now or if He wants to wait to show you these truths.    Just b/c you're going thru a valley right now, doesn't mean that there aren't more times when you will be on fire for the Lord.  Hang in there brother; rjust run to finish the race set before you; patience is a virtue ;)

this is a great thread that you started, thanks. :D
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2007, 03:35:40 AM »

To All,

  This thread just keeps on getting better and better.  I am so pleased at the harmony that is between all of us even though we are discussing a very controversial topic.  Kudos to all involved.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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TimothyVI

  • Guest
Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2007, 10:18:56 AM »

Hi All.

Although Katís analogy is a good one, it is not perfect and only goes so far.

In response to Tim's modification to Katís analogy, we need to remember that the parent is not completely sovereign. The parent did not create the other little girl, nor did the parent create the bicycle. The parent does not own everything and did not create everything. The parentís rights are therefore limited. The parent is also not perfect or completely just. God is both perfect and just.

The pivotal point is sovereignty.

In reality God is completely & fully sovereign. God is not limited. He is the very creator and owner of every single thing in every single dimension in the universe and beyond. He therefore can do as He pleases. He is the Sovereign God!† :)

Hope this helps.

God bless.
Andrevan.


You are absolutely right Andrevan. I would never question the right of God to do as He pleased.
He is, after all, God!
I only question why he would command people to do things that were contradictory to His own
commandment. You have to admit that it creates confusion if nothing else. Especially to those of
us who are not yet quite able to understand His teaching method. I am trying to learn to understand.
I pray each time I study His word for Him to grant me this understanding.

Ray has accused Christians of putting round pegs in square holes, or something to that effect. Literally bending
things to fit what they want to believe. I think that we are guilty of the same thing if we do not question
things like this that do not make sense to a reasonable person. Contradictions like this are not reasonable. And it is not
understood by a reasonable mind to say that it is O.K to contradict yourself just because you have the right to do so.
Especially if you are in charge of everything and at random change a law that you said must be followed by everyone.
Would not God want for his people to know not only that He was sovereign, but that His laws were laws that all people must follow in order to be made more in the image Him. Which would mean that He himself would follow the same law if He were human. In fact that is exactly what He did when He came to earth as a human.

If we accept the fact that God would change his own law about murdering whenever it pleased Him to do so. Then how do we
condemn people like the KKK who claimed that they were doing God's work. After all, if you are doing the will of God
taking another persons life is killing, if not it is murder. Of course we would say that we know that is a crock. They could not be doing the will of God, they were doing evil things.
But if everything is done as God wills, then??? God did not say, thou shall not murder unless
you are one of My chosen people,  for you it is acceptable to kill anyone who is not a Jew and is living on land that I want you to have.

I have much to think about and on which to meditate .

Tim
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hillsbororiver

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2007, 10:57:55 AM »

Earlier in this thread I attempted to provide an example of how tearing down & destroying something can be an ultimately positive thing. Let me approach it from another angle.

I tell my young son not to make holes in the walls of the house or to break any windows as he plays with his toy tool set. The next day he watches me take a sledgehammer to the walls of a house down the street, he also witnesses me breaking and tearing out the windows, ripping out carpet, etc.

As he silently watches me his mind is asking why is it ok for Dad to destroy and break things when he tells me not to do them. He walks away disappointed in his Dad and reports to his young friends how Daddy says one thing while he does just the opposite.

Am I a hypocrite? Do I tell my boy one thing as I do something else? Is there another answer?

Yes, I renovate houses. I must tear down the old tattered stuff that is no longer desirable so I can replace these old useless, musty, moldy, componants with fresh new materials that will make this house better than new.

Too bad my boy did not hang around and ask me, he has seen consistancy in everything else I do or say in regard to him, that is ok, he will find out the real answer eventually.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe†



 
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TimothyVI

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2007, 11:31:34 AM »

Cool Joe. ;D
I like that.

tim
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Pax Vobiscum

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2007, 01:53:45 PM »

Like Al Pacino in the final Godfather movie, "Just when I thought I was out, TimothyVI sucked me right back in!"

I do appeciate Joe's final analogy about God's sovereignty.† It make sense and is quite elegant.† However, God's sovereignty is not in question (as I see it) and it does not answer Sorin's question.

First, God did not command us to to not rape and steal "unless I tell you to."† But that is not the biggest paradox.

Imagine Jesus talking and saying in effect, "I have told you not to commit adultery, but now I tell you that anyone with lust in his or her heart..."

OT foods were unclean, but Paul tells us all foods are clean (even Twinkies??).† If Moses and Paul are speaking with God's authority....

The example of these types of commandment changes are many.

Whether he is amending or appending it is a change.†

This thread took a turn toward the sovereignty of God (which I do not question here), but if we return to the question at hand, I invite you to re-read my first entry into this thread.


Peace
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hillsbororiver

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2007, 02:47:58 PM »

Hi Pax,

Actually I did not intend to comment on God's sovereignity. My intention was to comment or illustrate our perception of His methodology and how some could see this as Him changing His mind or even hypocrisy.

I can see your point in regard to change though, but more like a tree will change through the course of the seasons rather than becoming something other than a tree or a different kind of tree.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe† †
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Sorin

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2007, 03:32:29 PM »

Joe,

That was a really good final analogy, it makes sense to me but that still doesn't account for God writing on the stone tablets one thing and commanding them to do to the heathens another [ i.e. thou shall not commit adultery, smite every male, but the virgin females take unto thy self.... you see? ]. So the only logical explantion I see is when God said 'I change not' He was refering to His postion, who He is... God... and there are none beside Him and He will always be God
Because just like your tree analogy, even though it's still a tree through the seasons it does change from having leaves to no leaves and all that.

So I don't know, maybe I need to think this whole thing through more, and let it all sink in.

Take care,
Sorin

« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 03:33:57 PM by Sorin »
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Sorin

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2007, 03:44:52 PM »

I got it! This is how, and why God did not contradict himself! The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, for the Jews [only]. In other words, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill [murder], and all a that was given to the Jews to not do those things unto another Jew only. They didn't mean you can't rape the heathens females, just not the Jewish ones. It didn't mean thou shall not murder a heahen baby, just not a Jewish one.

It's still pretty sad, but God is God, and there's nothing we can do about it.

That's how I view that, but I'm still trying to see how that justifies God though. Meaning, as being a God of love.



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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2007, 04:12:41 PM »

Sorin

Perhaps this will help. In returning to  Absolute v/s Relative principles let us consider what Jesus has to say about this subject.

Matt 19 : 8 Ö.Because of the hardness, stubbornness and perversity of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the BEGINNING it has NOT BEEN SO ORDAINED.

Jer 4 : 28 For this will the earth mourn and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not relent, nor will I turn back.

Gods Will and Gods Plan as we have been trained to observe through the teachings in the Myth of Free Will is that we resist Godís Will until we understand by experience that we are nothing and that we entirely depend on HIM for the fruit of HIS Spirit of love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, faithfulness and long suffering. Until we understand that we are weak, failing and liable to temptation. That we like to sin. We enjoy it because we are subject to vanity until we are released by God.
Until we are crushed by adversity and our arrogance is shattered in trials we have to understand by revelation that we on our own mission are not willing to be humbled or made into a contrite broken spirit. Until then we sin because we like to. We enjoy being hard, stubborn perverse and selfish. We think that is the way that God wants us to be and we are blind, decieved and delluded.

Gods Will is that we come to be pure in heart and clean of hand or conscience. This is His work within us over which we have to come to depend upon HIS Mercy, Grace and Unmerited Favor.



Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2007, 04:15:59 PM »

I got it! This is how, and why God did not contradict himself! The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, for the Jews [only]. In other words, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill [murder], and all a that was given to the Jews to not do those things unto another Jew only. They didn't mean you can't rape the heathens females, just not the Jewish ones. It didn't mean thou shall not murder a heahen baby, just not a Jewish one.

It's still pretty sad, but God is God, and there's nothing we can do about it.

That's how I view that, but I'm still trying to see how that justifies God though. Meaning, as being a God of love.





No Sorin I do not believe this is the answer either.

Remember the analogy I made with the boy and his Dad? What looked like wanton destruction just for gratification to the boy was in fact a plan to rebuild something better than ever for the Dad.

Humans in their carnal state rape, pillage, murder for personal gain, God uses destruction to rebuild and purify. If you have faith that God's plan is going to put everything back together better than ever then where is He being two faced or hypocritical?

This will be my last post in this thread, I think I have taken it as far as I can at this time.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 06:41:36 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2007, 04:28:39 PM »



Matt 25 : 24,25 He who had received one talent also came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you had not winnowed the grain. 25. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is your own. 26. But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and tgather grain where I have not winnowed? 30 Throw the good-for nothing servant into the outer darkness, there will be weeping and grinding of teeth."



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