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Author Topic: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?  (Read 2808 times)

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Brett

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"When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« on: January 06, 2007, 09:02:32 PM »

Hello!

I read Ray's "When the towers fall" of 9/11. I would like to show you below from Ray before I ask you if I am right understand. Bolds are mine:

Isaiah 30:1-3, 6-7—"Woe to the rebellious children [Israel], says the Lord, that take counsel, but not of ME: and cover with a covering [Heb: ‘make an alliance’ or ‘ratify a covenant’], but not of MY spirit [Heb: ‘against My will’], that they may add sin to sin.

I wondering that verse show that the people have FREE WILL because "not of Me (God)" and "against My (God) will"? From what I see this like God has nothing in His will so the people made their own free will? Know what I mean? Am I misunderstand verse? Hope you can help :).

Thanks a bunch :D,

Brett
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Craig

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2007, 10:58:56 PM »

I believe Ray answered a similiar question here.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2885.0.html

Craig
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gmik

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 11:08:11 PM »

Thanks Craig!
gena
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Brett

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2007, 02:24:56 AM »

Craig,

Yeah, I see what Ray's explained. I understand better. I appreciate your help. Thanks :D!

Brett
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 02:25:41 AM by Brett »
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mari_et_pere

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2007, 02:59:33 AM »


Ray said:


Quote
People go against God's will ALL DAY LONG. That's what most

    peoples' lives consist of--going against God's will.  It is God's purpose, plan, and

    intentions that absolutely no one has ever or ever will go against.  Listen:  It is

    God's purpose and plan that people GO AGAINST HIS WILL. He purposes for

    people to go against His will. It is God's will that we all become PERFECT as He

    is perfect, but it is in His sovereign plan that we all live very imperfect lives before

    God begins to change us into perfecion.
[/color]

I understand living an imperfect life, but would God be the author of every single bad desicion or act of sin that we are ever involved in? I've always been crossed on this. I realize God creates evil, but does He basically force us into EVERY act or thought? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and evidence on this.

M@tt
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Brett

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 03:15:31 AM »

Hi M@tt,


Quote
I understand living an imperfect life, but would God be the author of every single bad desicion or act of sin that we are ever involved in? I've always been crossed on this. I realize God creates evil, but does He basically force us into EVERY act or thought? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and evidence on this.

M@tt

No, God never force us to decision or sin. See Ray's response about force sin below:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2546.0.htm

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2545.0.html

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html


Hope these help you.

Brett
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 01:24:16 AM »


Ray said:


Quote
People go against God's will ALL DAY LONG. That's what most

    peoples' lives consist of--going against God's will.  It is God's purpose, plan, and

    intentions that absolutely no one has ever or ever will go against.  Listen:  It is

    God's purpose and plan that people GO AGAINST HIS WILL. He purposes for

    people to go against His will. It is God's will that we all become PERFECT as He

    is perfect, but it is in His sovereign plan that we all live very imperfect lives before

    God begins to change us into perfecion.
[/color]

I understand living an imperfect life, but would God be the author of every single bad desicion or act of sin that we are ever involved in? I've always been crossed on this. I realize God creates evil, but does He basically force us into EVERY act or thought? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and evidence on this.

M@tt


You know, I've had that same thought myself. Is God 'the author of every single bad decision or act of sin that we are ever involved in'  or from my perspective, every single bad decision that I've ever made in my entire life, all the things that I regret, all the things that I'm ashamed of, and would rather die than have exposed?

It's still something I don't fully understand, but in a way I look at it like this: God doesn't force us to sin, we do it willingly from our hearts. You may ask how so if we don't have a 'free will' well I put it like this. God created males and females [ talking about the straight ones here] and gave them hormones, and made them attractive one to the other. God also proclaimed that it's a sin to have pre-merital sex, now, God doesn't have to 'force' those two to give into their lusts and sin, they do it willingly, they volunteer, they make the decision to do it. But what was the cause? Well God is the cause. How so you ask? Well Say for example, God was the one that made it so that
they would both be in a place where they are all alone and all they needed was the oppurtunity and they both jumped on it. Thus, they both willingly made the decision to sin.

I know it's not a very good explaination, but I was attempting to show how God doesn't 'force' us to sin, we volunteer for it, all we need is the oppurtunity and we go for it. It's like God created us too spiritualy weak not to sin, and He knows when we are going to sin because we're to weak to resist the cause and in so doing, we do it willingly.

I hope that helps your understanding.

Take care,
Sorin
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mari_et_pere

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 08:48:24 PM »


As a child I attended a Christian school from age 4 until I was 16. We were taught that God knows all, that He knows everything that hasn't even happened yet. I always believed that. Obviously He does for all things are done by Him.
I think that thinking He knows what you will do next is the flip side of the absence of free will. He knows what you're going to do, so even if you have the "will to decide", He already knows what the decision will be, which makes "free will" more like pre-destiny?  Yes?  ??? I confused myself again.
Maybe it's more like: He already knows what we'll do or think, so he already knows the decision that we'll make with our free will?  Which means that even if we have free will, free will's outcome is already known by Him??? Man I'm blowing a circuit here! [fizzle fizzle pop!]

M@tt
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Sorin

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 08:55:36 PM »

I recommend you listen to the audio from 01.07.07 about 'free will' being an oxymoron. You can find it in the announcements section.  It has helped my understanding, hopefully it will yours too.

Take care,
Sorin

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Phazel

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 12:02:19 PM »

Hi M@tt,


Quote
I understand living an imperfect life, but would God be the author of every single bad desicion or act of sin that we are ever involved in? I've always been crossed on this. I realize God creates evil, but does He basically force us into EVERY act or thought? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and evidence on this.

M@tt

No, God never force us to decision or sin. See Ray's response about force sin below:

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2546.0.htm

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2545.0.html

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html


Hope these help you.

Brett




I think this is alot of what gets some of us confused.   Maybe God does not force us to sin, but it seems like an argument of semantics.

What is the real difference?     The key here to our accountability seems to be willingness.   But how can our willingness be of "us" if God made us to be willing.   Is our "willingness" to sin independant of God?

In the end God is responsible and within this body here no one seems to dispute that,  but I am having a hard time with how we are accountable if God made us willing.   How is it my choice to be willing if God made me willing to sin?

And if its not my choice, how am I accountable?
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Kat

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 03:45:12 PM »

Hi Phazel,

The way I look at it is since God is the creator of everything.
He is responsible for everything that He created to continue as He designed it.
He is responsible for holding the planets in their orbit.
He is rersponsible for keeping the cycle of rain coming down to form the lakes and oceans that evaporates back up to the clouds and back down again.
He is responsible that the oxygen we breathe to continue to be made by the plants.
He is responsible that the earth keeps producing the plants for oxygen and food. 
He is responsible for creating Satan.
He is responsible for making us too weak to resist sin.
He is responsible that the world is full of temptation.
He not only made everything, but He is responsible for keeping it all going by His power. 
So you see He is responsible for everything.
But when we preform an act or say something or even think, we are actually preforming it, or saying it or thinking it ourself. 
The act of actually doing it makes us accountable.
He does not possess us, where we have no control, but He put everything into motion.
He is responsible for creating the situation that caused us to do it, but we did it.
He did not actually do it Himself or even force us to, that's why we are accountable.

Well that's how I see, maybe it can help your understanding  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Brett

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Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 03:11:34 AM »

Hello again,

Kat's post about God's responsible is very clear sense to me. I can see some of you guys confuse about "Why God made this way?" and "If God made this then why am I accountable?". I understand things never make sense to us. But, for while, I was thinking in my mine and I thought maybe I should share with you of what I was thinking. Responsible and accountable are BIG different. Responsible mean 'do something' and accountable never mean 'do something' but like explaining of what you have done on earth, both good and evil. I feel hesitate to share with you of what I was thinking because I don't know if my thinking is right about this. I will explain the best I can and deaf language ;):




Why not God created us in spiritual bodies once and never have flesh (weakness), so we will never sin, never mistake, never stupid, etc. etc. BUT, will we know what is mean evil? No. Will we know what is sin? No. Will we know what is good? No. Will we know what is not sin? No. None of us will know what is good and evil. We will never have knowledge of good and evil. So, God did not want to created us in spiritual bodies and 'unknow of good and evil'. God created us in flesh (weakness) so that we can see what is evil and what is sin, and what is good and what is not sin (of course, flesh is too weak to avoid the lust of sin!). If we desire do 'good' then we know what is evil. All of us have experience do good and evil. Of course, many (flesh) love do evil than good as we can see. But God will chasten, discipline, repent, learn the truth & righteousness, confess Jesus is Lord, etc. then they all will return to God. And all (spiritual bodies in future) will have knowledge of good and evil just like God has. All of things we have experience of good and evil will bring us to accountable before God. Now what did God's responsible ('do something') for us as flesh? God send His SON, Jesus Christ in flesh to died for our sin. He did something for us. And more, He will do something to chastening, discipline, repent, etc. etc. for all mankind (unless God's elect are judement on them now [the house of God]).




Do you feel like you desire do 'good' rather than evil things, yet you failed many times? If so, you know you cannot do it your own strenght of 'good' without God in you. It is His time. If God is in you, He will lead you to be overcomer in progess, that is judgment on the house of God (elect) now while you live on the earth before death. I found Ray's article of Lake of Fire Series - "God Judges The World in a Pond" today, he did explaining of we cannot do our own strength 'do good' without God in us like the house of God:

COUNTING THE COST

God has already outlined a training course for those who would be Sons and Daughters of God. It involves a whole lot more than just enunciating a phrase of faith in Jesus. Acknowledging Jesus as your Saviour is certainly the starting point, but it is far from the complete requirement for those who would reign with Jesus as Judge, Lord, Priest and King. Here are just a few of the things that God requires of us. There are, of course, dozens, even HUNDREDS more declarations and admonitions to those who would become manifest Sons and Daughters of our God and Father:

"LOVE your enemies, BLESS them that curse you, DO GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you [Why?]; that ye may be the children [Greek: ‘SONS’] of your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:44-45)!

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, DO YE EVEN SO TO THEM: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matt. 7:12).

"For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

"Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after Me, let Him DENY HIMSELF, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Matt. 16:24).

"Jesus said unto him, You shall LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind… YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:37-40).

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24:12-13).

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).

"Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

"COME OUT OF HER [Mystery Babylon the Great and all of her evil teachings], My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

"My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. IF YOU ENDURE CHASTENING, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8).

"Beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as YE ARE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST’S SUFFERINGS; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (I Pet. 4:12-13).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it BE TRIED WITH [SPIRITUAL] FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

"LOVE NOT THE WORLD [that is the social system of this world, we are to love the people of the world], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a LIVING SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And BE NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD: but be ye transformed by the RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Rom. 12:1).

"But Jesus called them unto Him and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But IT SHALL NOT BE SO WITH YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister [servant]" (Matt. 20:25-26).

"Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each ESTEEM OTHER BETTER THAN THEMSELVES" (Phil. 2:3).

"Let this MIND BE IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5).

"SUBMIT yourselves therefore to God. RESIST the devil, and he will flee from you. DRAW NIGH to God, and He will draw night to you. CLEANSE your hands, ye sinners; and PURIFY your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:7).

"REPENT ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE" (Phil. 1:29).

"But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).

"Then said Jesus unto him, PUT UP AGAIN YOUR SWORD into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matt. 26:52).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die, but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"WALK IN THE SPIRIT, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).

I know that it sounds overwhelming that we should actually live by all of these commandments. And actually, there are many more like commandments in God’s Word. How are we to perform all these impossible tasks? Well certainly not by our own will and power.

ALL THESE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD

Thankfully, we don’t have to accomplish all these many commands by our own power. God also gives us many promises to be with us in every way necessary to assure our success:

"I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me [‘I have strength for all things in HIM which GIVES ME POWER’ {Henry Alford}, ‘Nothing is beyond my power in the strength of HIM Who MAKES ME STRONG’ {The Twentieth Century New Testament}, ‘I am ready for anything through the strength of the One who LIVES WITHIN ME’ {Phillips Translation}]" (Phil. 4:13).

"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and HE SHALL LIFT YOU UP" (James 4:10).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVES IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you though the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord… Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ… Wherefore the rather, brethren given diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (I Pet. 1:2-10).

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season WE SHALL REAP, if we faint not [Gk: ‘do not lose heart’]" (Gal. 6:9).

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto ALL THEM ALSO THAT LOVE HIS APPEARING" (II Tim.4:8.

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment [remember that, ‘judgment is upon the House of God NOW,’ I Pet. 4:17] : because as He is, SO ARE IN THIS WORLD" (I John 4:17).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP [Gk: ACHIEVEMENT], CREATED IN Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-9).

"If God be for us, WHO CAN BE AGAINST US? (Rom. 8:31).

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from THE LOVE OF GOD, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD" (Rom. 8:38-39).

And likewise, there are many more such Scriptures of comfort and assurance that God is able and willing to see us succeed once He has begun a work in us.



I hope these help you better.

Brett :D
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: "When the towers falls"-Free Will?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 11:06:24 AM »


Hi Brett,

Good post, you put that very well  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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