Preordained

[SteveW]

Sorin,

It takes a temperature of 800-1700 degrees C to turn sand into glass.  Often I just want to stay "sand" too (I promise I will try to be good sand).  May God increase our faith!  He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.  The desination is worth the journey.

[Craig]

He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.

Yes, Steve.  If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed.

Craig

[YellowStone]

He gives me just enough to accept what I can't understand, and to take the heat.

Yes, Steve.  If God will just give as that much we are truely blessed.

Craig

Craig, I will gladly second that!

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Andrevan

You wrote : I'm finding it hard to understand that I "volunteer" to sin. Volunteering to me is a choice, choice does not mean free will, I understand this. But if God has brought about the circumstances that cause me to sin, then really I'm not volunteering, as I could not have "not volunteered" to sin in the first place.  

So from what you said, I'm fine with how God does this, it is through this experience of good and evil that we learn righteousness. We need to experience & hate this sin in us & others, why else would we repent? So the man who rapes someone, or murders someone, was caused to do so by God, he did not volunteer, his choice was caused, he could not really have chosen otherwise. This is where I keep ending up.

It is okay to keep ending up with knowing that we do not have free choice or free will. THAT is the revelation!   THAT IS WHERE YOU SHOULD END UP!

Perhaps this more simplified version can help.

Evil circumstances + a wretched heart condition = sin (Humanity starts at this point in carnality)

GOD changes this formula by Grace through Faith.

Rom 5 : 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. 21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto aion life by Jesus Christ.

God creates circumstances in which we fall, we leave our first love and we sin. This is part of the process of going on to perfection through which God corrects us and conforms us to the image of His Son.

Heb 12 : 8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all of God's children share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons.

The Scriptures tell us that it through much tribulation that we enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Acts 14 : 22

2 COR 12 : 9 My Grace, My favor and loving-kindness and mercy is enough for you, sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully: for My strenght and power are made perfect, fulfilled and completed and show themselves most effective in your weakness.

Peace and His Grace be to you

Arcturus

[josh]

Sorin,

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (man became a living being.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says— He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

I believe the scriptures are clear that life only comes by "the breath of life" which is from God... the unplanned child from the tragic rape is not only part of the perfect plan of God, but it can serve as a beautiful reminder of how out of the most awful and vile sin, God can bring forth life.

I will not pretend for even a moment that I know what it feels like for a woman to be raped and then to have to deal with the aftermath of emotions and pain, both mental and physical she will have to endure... I can imagine how difficult it would be to have a child who is a constant reminder of that awful experience... but I can relate to this situation in that a family member of mine was sexually molested by a youth pastor I once trusted and spent time with.

It was during that time, when tragedy struck my family that I began to question how God could allow something so awful to happen to such a young girl, a sister that I loved and didn't feel like deserved what she had been forced to deal with at such a young age. It reeked havoc on my family... still to this day I see the effects of that occurrence on my sister.

In reading the scriptures I know this for sure... the steps of a righteous man are ordered by God, but what about the unrighteous man? What about his steps? Who orders those?

That man's god, his own lusts, orders his steps... God simply gives "them over to the lusts of there heart to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them" (Romans 1:24-26, quoted below)... God knows what the heart is capable of... He created it that way...

Romans 1:24-26
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,


I think the key to this discussion is to understand that God chooses some vessels for honor, others for dishonor...

The vessels of dishonors steps are ordered by their pride and their lust... God in His foreknowledge knows what sins they will commit, because He places them in the situation and specific circumstances... but He doesn't need to force or preordain a specific sin, because He has already caused the man to be blinded to the truth and in so doing knows in advance what they will choose... because He knows our heart and our thoughts before we even feel/think them.

I believe when Ray stated that God "kills for the welfare of the one He kills"... he was referring to all who die. Regardless of how my life ends... whether I am shot at the age of 23, die of cancer at 45 or pass away from natural causes at 67 or 89 or even if I'm Methuselah and die at the young age 900+ yrs... God still chose to take my life or "kill me"... If I believe the scriptures, I must believe that when it is my time, it is the absolute best time for my life here on earth to end, because God works all things according the counsel of His own will and His will is perfect.

Last night, I went to visit a friend of mine whose family is renting a beach house out in Gulf Breeze... we were sitting inside and watching the news when an interesting story came on about the demolition of a large hotel/casino in Las Vegas. I watched as they counted down... 10...9...8 ...    ...1, then a large fireworks display went off and finally the explosions went off in every floor... it was amazing really... the whole building imploding and collapsing onto itself...

Lately, I've felt a lot like that building... the last year or so of my life, my whole "theology" has been turned upside down and deconstructed... in a sense, my whole life was built on my understanding of God and then it all imploded... and in a sense so did I... I'm sure you can relate.

Even before I came to BT, I have struggled with many, if not all of the teachings of the mainstream church... and even now, as I am beginning to understand a small portion of the truth/mysteries of God, I fight against it because it all seems so against my own human nature and ideals of what is right.

There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don't want to let it go... when I can't imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have... but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how "unfinished" I really am... maybe "different" won't be so bad Sorin... I can't imagine it either and most of the time it's scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life... but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind... but trust is hard to learn.

Not sure if this helps, but know that most of us feel the same as you.

Your Brother,
Josh

[Deborah-Leigh]

Josh

You are an inspiration!

[YellowStone]

Josh Wrote:

There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don't want to let it go... when I can't imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have... but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how "unfinished" I really am... maybe "different" won't be so bad Sorin... I can't imagine it either and most of the time it's scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life... but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind... but trust is hard to learn.


I know what you mean about not being able to imagine what it is going to be like. However, just think how it must be like for someone who never experienced one or more of their senses.

How could one explain an inspirational sunset, the view from the edge of the Grand Canyon, a star filled night sky, a rainbow, a prairie filled with wild flowers to someone who knows not sight. How also could one explain the laughter of child, sound of wind through the trees, of birds in the springtime, of the monumental clashes of thunder or a coyote howling in the night to someone who is deaf. Likewise how can one explain taste, or smell to someone who has not experienced them first hand.

Yet, we treat these as givens, most likely no one gives them a second thought, yet all that I mentioned and many more that I did not gives us life as we know it here on this Earth. Our Father has given this to us today, knowing that our world will be soiled by sin, yet with these wonderful gifts, we can still find an innumerable ways in which to marvel at his wisdom, forethought and unwavering love for us.

Yet I do not think that man in all his wisdom could comprehend what God has planned for us, even if we knew.

One last thing; I feel that trust has less to do with learning that it has about letting go.   It was a big step understanding that I was not the center of my universe, that it was NOT only I who knew me, that it was NOT only I who could know the pain of my past. God was there with me all along.

Psa 23:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD [is] my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psa 23:2  He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

Psa 23:3  He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Psa 23:5  Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psa 23:6  Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

If this is not sound instruction regarding trust towards our God in this life, then someone please tell me.

Thanks Josh, your post is/was wonderful. It is heartfelt and meaningful, and I too took much from it.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[Jennie]

Hello to you all, I have read this thread and re-read this thread in trying to understand. I hit the stumbling block with the idea that child abusers, rapists of children are made that way. As one who has been there( victim of), statistically I should be more likely to be an alcoholic, drug user , etc., because of my background. I made a concious choice many years ago that I would not be a statistic and act out in the ways that people often do when this has happened to them. Am I changed because of the event? Yes I am. I will always have the physical problems that I deal with daily because the damage was so great. I am my own worst critic. Somedays I think I 'm responsible for the war in Iraq!!! That is another side effect of what happened . Instead of being a statistic I try to take the experience , although it was not right that it happen to a child, to help others who have lived through this and maybe give them some hope and support. I still don't understand all this thread contains and probably never will but I guess that's okay. Jennie

[gmik]

Josh, that was pretty insightful.

Dang, I still get convoluted about it, tho.

God made vessels for honor & dishonor.  Jacob have I loved, Esau have I "less loved".  God created evil.  Alll is by plan & design.  I believed that when I scratch my nose God had me do it from the foundation of the world.  All my stupid and not so stupid mistakes thru out my life were for me to bring me to where I am and still going

So the rapist, or hitler, or the cheater on taxes were all made to be that way.  Our sins reveal the idols of our hearts.  So are we now saying that God just KNEW what we were gonna do and doesn't stop it?  Is there any room at all for some small "free will" things going on??

I just got (another)e mail from this close to me person (I mentioned on another thread a minite ago about tithing) saying "you can't get mad at me cuz you don't believe in free will and so I just HAD to tell you this!"  I had tried talking to this person before but couldn't do it very well (this was about a year ago when I was much greener at this), and they bring it up just now.."you couldn't explain it to me then and you can't now becz it doesn't make any sense!"  I sent them to BT to let them read it for themselves.  They are madder than a skunk about BT and they don't even want to associate w/ me anymore if I keep following "this false prophet".

I am a little bummed right now.

[hillsbororiver]

Dear Sister Gena,

I'd say you are in some really good company! 

Joh 15:18  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Joh 15:20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kep my saying, they will keep yours also.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[sansmile]

What a thought provoking thread!  it's late here in the UK and i should be sleeping.... but i seem to be seeing..maybe i am wrong...but i am seeing a concentration on LEVEL of sin. What shocks some may not others. To people,that call themselves christians..they might say, that we (non mainstream) are worse than rapists are murderers...because we see the truth and say it...it is bitter to their stomachs. I have had many say to me that i am an heretic ... i will burn more..because they say  to me that i know Christ but wont accept His word. You all know what  mean......in that they say we are blaspheming. What i have seen in His word with regard to sin is....there are no levels. Yes, i believe some will receive more stripes than others, will spend a shorter or longer time in the lake of fire, but we all have siinned. We need to be careful lest we boast. 
Josh said...."when this life feels so sweet that I don't want to let it go"   i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.Paul explained it perfectly in Romans.   I think we really need to understand what preordained means versus pre knowledge. many of us are in differant walks and He reveals to us all at differant times, He has in His wisdom ,not mine, given me understanding of the " free will " myth. He knows what we will choose in the choices He has given us, cause He knows NOT TIME. We measure what is happening to us individually,by time, ....looking back is how we can see..looking back is when we see the beast. Is our beast lesser than the rapist...the murderer. If we want to judge levels ofsin we need to really look at how much truth we have in us. I do not believe that the child rapist does not feel some remorse or guilt, i believe he/she sees the beast IN themselves but doesnt recognise that the beast is the carnal in them because they do Not know the spirit of truth. Paul said he was judged perfect in the law, because he knew NOT what sin was.   Sometimes in here we need to remember.......judge ourselves and we will not be judged. Our focus should be on Him...by thinking we have "free will "annuls Him and totally contradicts the truth we have been shown. He is sovereign   He is creat ING us in His image, WE have been pre ordained as children of God  .......only because He has seen........not thru time  (as we know it)   but through Him being all knowing   a concept we as mankind,  can never truly understand     because we have not YET the mind of God. We are not YET perfected.
    May God give us understanding through His Living word

Sandie

[hillsbororiver]

"when this life feels so sweet that I don't want to let it go"   i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.

Hi Sandie,

I am certainly with you here, perhaps it is because of the number of years I have been in this flesh (53 later this month) and the accelerated life experiences both good and bad that have transpired I must admit a weariness of this present world, I so look forward to the next age.

The unknown things He has in store for us I know in my spirit will be so vastly superior to what we see, feel and think presently that there is no comparison, I am anxiously anticipating His Kingdom.

Other than family and friends there isn't much in this world I feel tethered to any more, since I know they will all be with me eventually I haven't much fear of a short, blink of an eye separation.

I hope I do not sound meloncholy because I am not, it is just that I am over the earthly things I once held dear, even though certain temptations are still  mighty thorns in my flesh. I guess I am tired of that too. 

His Peace to you,

Joe  

[josh]

Gena,

A couple of thoughts on your last post...

You state:

"God made vessels for honor & dishonor.  Jacob have I loved, Esau have I "less loved".  God created evil."

I agree with all of these statements except about Esau being "less loved"... I believe Ray shares some thoughts on this on the second part of the Feb. Bible Study on "Love"... it was also discussed shortly after on a thread here at the forum...

Here is the thread: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3469.0.html

"All is by plan & design.  I believed that when I scratch my nose God had me do it from the foundation of the world.  All my stupid and not so stupid mistakes thru out my life were for me to bring me to where I am and still going

So the rapist, or hitler, or the cheater on taxes were all made to be that way.  Our sins reveal the idols of our hearts.  So are we now saying that God just KNEW what we were gonna do and doesn't stop it?  Is there any room at all for some small "free will" things going on??"

I'm by no means an expert on this subject... here is an excerpt from Ray's LOF series, Free Will Part C:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION

All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:

"For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist ['has its cohesion,' ]" (Col. 1:16-17).

Since "by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion," why is it that only man and his fabled "free-moral-agency-will" is the only truly "free radical" in the universe? Nonsense! Even "free radicals" operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is "working—operating" all that exists, and that includes the "will" of all mankind. Here's some more Scriptural proof:

"...God which works ['operates'] all in all " (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh?  When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can "desire" great things, but He cannot actually "accomplish" great things is absurd.

Here is Christian theology at its best: God invents man. God desires for man to work a certain way. Man fails to work in the way that God desires. Out of uncontrollable frustration, God tortures his mal-functioning invention for all eternity. And no one sees a problem with this anti-scriptural heresy.

Who among us has not seen in real life or in the movies:  A man invents a machine. He desires for his invention to work a certain way. The invention fails to work in the desired way. The inventor smashes the mal-functioning machine into a thousand pieces? We laugh at such stupid and juvenile behavior, yet we worship a god who supposedly acts a thousand times more stupid and evil than our carnal-minded inventor. Go figure.

What kind of insanity blames a "created machine" for any mal-functions? God created the human race; God is responsible for any and all activities of the human race. No one asked to be born! And yet... and YET, there are those evil-minded theologians and Christians who believe that God will not only torture most of His creatures, but that He actually knew in advance of their creation that He would torture most of them in literal fire for all eternity!

Not only would such an "Inventor" be stupid, but he would be evil beyond words to describe. Yet even all of this stupidity and evil of the human heart, "...is of God." Most have not yet even conceived of the Judgment that will come on them for the heresy of their own hearts. This judgment of our hearts is also part of God's grand plan. God has made man in this weakened spiritual state for a grand and glorious destiny. Man is not yet created in God's full spiritual Image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race—to finally be the very Image of God Himself.

The Scriptures plainly show and state in many places, that the natural mind of man cannot love and obey God. Yet theologians tell us that unless man does, of his own free will, love and obey God, that God will torture them in fire for all eternity. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

"...Who works ['operates'] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).

"And ALL THINGS are of God..." (II Cor. 5:;18).

"...calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE"  (Rom. 4:17).

"Declaring the END from the BEGINNING..."  (Isa. 46:10).

"For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: 'we ARE'—we exist]..." (Acts 17:28).

All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only "live and move... IN HIM."  And this is why:

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23).

No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: "...and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly 'freely' thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that 'freedom' of the will?]" (Rom. 4:17).

I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, "Ah, yes, now I get it." Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn't know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?

If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
"call those things which be not as though they were."

"Man's goings [Heb: 'steps'] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord." (Prov. 16:1).

No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!

"The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself... without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing" (John 5:19 & 15:5].

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps.
Josh

[josh]

Sandi,

I think we are in more agreement then you realize...

"There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don't want to let it go... when I can't imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have... but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how "unfinished" I really am... maybe "different" won't be so bad Sorin... I can't imagine it either and most of the time it's scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life... but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind... but trust is hard to learn."

God's Peace
Josh

[gmik]

Thanks Joe and Josh!!

[Dennis Vogel]

It took me years to come to grips with free will, but I did not come to my understanding with my own desire to know.

Some honestly want to understand and some are simply looking for contradictions so they have a way out (subconsciously?).

Just because you do not understand does not mean it is not so. Is it vanity that prevents someone from accepting that they do not yet know and understand?

We've beat this topic up and it is time to lock it.

Dennis