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Commen Logic vs. "Free Will"
Sorin:
Ray said: "Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face: You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?! "
Actually, if Billy does not have a free will, and can not make any uncaused choices, then no, he can not choose to eighter 'cling unto his unscriptural 'free-will' or choose to believe that scripture that Ray just presented to him. Because that would be a 'free choice' you see.
Ray is still putting God in the present causing things to happen according to His will, as opposed to God knowing Peter would deny Christ because He is also in the future and
foresaw it, God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?
If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices, we don't have free thought, then of what use is our mind? I get the law of cause and effect, but that's for brainless things, that just stand there and when there's a cause the effect follows. Like a window for example, it just stays there and does nothing, until a rock is thrown through it then it shatters. Are we just like that window, that can't even think a thought, or move our pinky finger without a cause? Is every movement we make an effect of some cause?
hebrewroots98:
This is meat indeed! The only thing that I can add is the fact that it is very arrogant for a weak human being to think that they can WILL themselves into an eternal place (Heaven or Hell). ONLY GOD has the ability/power/understanding to do that (to put someone somwhere for an eternity). (And being that there is no hell, He is in charge of ensuring everyones' eternal home) The 'free willers' are 'playing as tho they are God' to literally think that they can think themselves in to a place that they have not seen before (and that is a sin within itself to have this idol of the heart of thinking that a human has this kind of power within them; plus, on top of that sin is the sin in believing that there is a hell for them to send themselves to. ??? ??? (I know, I have fianlly been delivered from my own deceptive beleifs concerning this.) Praise God! :D
sj:
Sorin,
A wise member of the forum once told me "in the final analysis, whether we have Free Will or not, we must live as if we have it"...
The more I meditate on this subject, the less I am even able to consider that man has a free will. Look at creation, God not only created EVERYTHING, but He also created each tiny atom and molecule that makes up everything.
Is the human mind any different? God has created us with the miraculous abilitiy to learn from our different experiences in life, but He has also created HOW we will experience them.
To attempt to prove that we the creation could create even an origianal though independent of the creator goes against the scriptures. THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE WITHOUT HIM! (John 1:1-3)
God created me. He created my physical, mental and spiritual being. He created how these 3 would interact. He created the feelings that I would have and what causes them to react differently in various degree in various situations and enviroments.
An everyday example is our taste buds... I've heard it stated many times that our taste buds change every seven years... while I cannot testify to that exact time, I can say that my tastes have changed as I have gotten older, not by my own free choice, but by how my body was created.
We don't have to see it the same way, sorin. In God's time we will both understand the truth and I'm sure both of us will be suprised at how far we were from how truly great His plan for us really is.
God's Peace.
Josh
ciy:
Sorin, you are on the right trail keep pondering what you are saying. You said:
"God had to make, cause Peter to deny him. Therefore Peter didn't really deny him, he just had no choice but to deny him. You see?
If that's the case, and we can't make any uncaused choices"
We have never made any uncaused choices. If I offer you tea or coffee, you do not make an uncaused choice. You select one or the other depending on prior tasting, your mood, the time of day, your physical condition, the temperature, etc. all of these factors cause you to decide one way or the other. We always choose because of some "cause" or circumstance in order to receive the desired effect which makes your choice not free but depending on the desired effect. God hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would make a choice that would give Pharoah the desires of his heart. Pretty neat. "Delight yourself in the Lord and HE WILL give you the DESIRES of YOUR HEART"
Actually pretty amazing. God is something.
CIY
gmik:
We make our choices based on what CIY mentioned, also our culture, ethnicity, family upbringing and all sorts of things that God puts in our life. Then based on the condition of our HEARTS, and all the caused events we make a "decision". We weigh things out, list the pros & cons, preferences, and all the other things (using our brain) and we make our choice. If it turns out good then it was the path God wanted, if it is a lousy decision, that shows us the idols of our hearts, we still need lessons to learn, but still the lousy choice was God's path for our journey too. The choices we make shows US our spiritual development, it shows us how active the beast still is.
Do I want tea or coffee---no free will here, all based on conditions right now and preferences from the past, all caused by God.
Do I want to retire or keep working---I'd think about it, get advice, list the pros & cons, do a money crunch, ask God to be willing to hear Him, seek scripture, be out of known sins, and know that the decision I make is God leading me and directing my path-for good or bad..God is working no matter which way "I" choose.
This is starting to sink in for me. Good thread folks.
love,
gena
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