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Commen Logic vs. "Free Will"
Sorin:
Eirik said: "God being a passive observer "from eternity" does not comply with "working all things after the counsel of His own will"."
Yes, I know that, but what I was attempting to portray was that, that is a weak argument for lack of free will because 'God knows what you will choose' and thus I gave an example of how it could be otherwise, without causation.
Take care,
Sorin
ciy:
Sorin, my friend, please take this in the right frame of mind and in the spirit that it is offered.
Imagine you are in a room with white walls, now think of a color to paint these walls. Try to think of a color that has never been before and is not in the color spectrum of the prism or rainbow. If you can think of a color that is not available in creation then you have free will. If you cannot come up with a color that is available in the color spectrum, then your choice is restricted or caused by the circumstances. You choice of color is dependent on what is available and therefore your choice is caused by an "effect".
Another way. If all the colors that were available were the primary colors red, yellow, and blue with no mixing or shading. These are the only colors in nature, then you would have a choice between red, yellow, and blue. You could not will the color purple because it is not available. You simply have a choice to make between red, yellow, or blue.
This makes sense in my mind. I hope it helps you see.
CIY
Sorin:
CIY,
Are you saying that since I choose to paint the whole room red, the only way God could possibly know that I would choose red is to cause me to choose red? Couldn't it be that He knows my thoughts? Knows that I would prefer red over the other colors and thus I choose red, and not only that but He is so ahead of that decision that the room is already fully painted red before I even get the option to choose a color from His point of view [in the future]. I'm not really saying we have free will or we don't. But if the only way God knows what we will do next is to cause us to do something, then He is limited to the present and his foreknowledge is dependent on causing us to choose a certain way, rather then knowing what we already choose before we get the choice to even make a decision.
Take care,
Sorin
Kat:
Hi Sorin,
I just came across this email, it is a really good explanation.
Maybe this will help you.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why *-------------------------------------------
Dear Billy:
I know now that you are only 17, but if you insist on speaking about mature themes, then I will insist on answering on a mature level.
You say that you believe in the one true God who knows all things. But then you say that you believe in "free will." You need to sit down for a couple of hours sometime and think those statements through, Billy. They cannot BOTH be true. No they CAN'T!!! Listen! When God KNOWS (for a fact) that something WILL HAPPEN, then it is absurd to say, "But maybe (just maybe) it DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN! If the thing doesn't have to happen, because you say it is FREE not to happen, then it is possible that it WILL NOT HAPPEN. But then God would be mistaken (which, by the way, would then be a SIN on God's part--a mistake is a sin by Scriptural definition). When something is determined ahead of time to happen (namely God's foreknowledge that it WILL HAPPEN), then it absolutely cannot be otherwise lest God be mistaken. What ever is determined ahead of time to either happen or not happen, is NOT 'FREE' TO BE OTHERWISE! To say otherwise, is a contradiction. God is not a God of contradictions, lies, or confusion.
Billy, the reason that prophecies come to pass, is not because God has figured out in advance the probabilities of this or that happening by itself or aided by the phantom of 'free-will,' but rather because God CAUSES AND BRINGS ABOUT all of His prophecies. Maybe it's time for a Scripture. Does God anything tell us WHY things happen as they happen? Yes, He does! Isaiah 46:10-11:
"Declaring the end from the beginning [yes, God can DO THAT. But HOW?], and from the ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE [But HOW? How does God DO IT?], saying, my COUNSEL SHALL STAND, I WILL DO ALL my pleasure."
Now then, Billy, you have a giant choice staring you in the face: You can either cling to you unscriptural 'free-will' or you can BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE THAT I JUST PRESENTED TO YOU!?! "I WILL DO..." is God's answer. How does God declare the end from the beginning? "I WILL DO..." How is God sure that what He has prophesied will happen? "I WILL DO..." Would you like more proof? There is more:
"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [As in all prophecies! As is "God our Saviour Who WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED..." I Tim. 2:4!][now then, once God has 'spoken it' does it all come about by and through the 'free wills' of billions of people? Hardly], I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; [still having doubts, Billy? Continue...]; I have PURPOSED it, [But since all men supposedly have a 'free will' it doesn't really have to happen that way, does it?], I [that's God, not man's free will] WILL ALSO DO IT" (Ver. 11)!
We have just read that God causes EVERYTHING to happen as He has counsel, pleased, spoken, and purposed. EVERYTHING!!! Everything from the beginning to everything at the end. Everything from ancient times to everything YET TO HAPPEN. Let me reiterate, Billy. Everything that happens, happens NOT by the 'free will' choices of men, but BY GOD.
"MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND..."
"I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE."
"I HAVE SPOKEN..."
"I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS..."
"I HAVE PURPOSED IT..."
"I WILL ALSO DO IT..."
"FOR of him, AND through him, AND to him, ARE ALL THINGS: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom. 11:36)
"...according to the PURPOSE OF HIM Who WORKETH ALL THINGS [How? By man's free will?] after the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11 second half).
And many more such Scriptures, Billy--SCRIPTURES, not the stupid wisdom of mankind. It is blasphemy to read all of these Scriptures and then teach that things happen or don't happen through man's 'free will.' That is not only nonsense, foolishness, and Unscriptural, it is evil.
To be sure, man has a will. That it is "free" to choose anything other than what God has already determined WILL BE, is totally unscriptural:
"For it is GOD which worketh in you TO WILL and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
God may not cause all men to eat grass as an ox before acknowledging that it is GOD that causes all to come about and not man's fabled free will:
"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured Him that liveth for ever, Whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH: and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:34-35).
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature [mankind] more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 1:25).
Human 'free will' is the epitome, the apex, the zenith of SECULAR HUMANISM! Man attributed to HIMSELF a power (free will) that is GREATER than the very WILL OF GOD, inasmuch has man supposedly can THWART the very will of God through his fabled 'free will."
Free will is the VERY GOD of secular humanism AND Christian humanism! This my friend, is both idolatry and blasphemy! Maybe more will need to be turned into animals before they acknowledge Who it is that rules in the heavens and all the inhabitants of the earth.
My prayer, Billy, is that you will see the foolishness and evil of this human "idol of the heart" and give it up. It is a humbling experience to come to really know and acknowledge that God is in complete control of all men's lives, but when we do, we would never again have it any other way!
Sincerely,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
ciy:
Sorry Sorin, I have done a fair amount of oil painting landscapes and such that this analogy makes great sense to me.
Let me just try one more thing. I am not boasting or holier-than-thouing just giving examples that I meditate on to keep a grasp on God's sovereignty versus our free will.
Not only did God cause Pharoah to continue to hold the Israelites in Egypt, he also made every circumstance fall exactly in to place that when he did let them go, which was at the exact perfect time, He caused by circumstances (causes) the Israelites to go through the Red Sea. He knew it was going to happen and He caused it to happen. The Israelites were caused to choose to go through the Red Sea. They could not decide to be airlifted out, bused out, or beamed out. Those were not part of the choices that God had given them. They could die or flee through the Red Sea and God through hardening hearts, softening hearts, causing thoughts, causing certain people to be in certain places, causing storms, winds and rains made it where the Israelites chose to go through the Red Sea. They actually could not have done anything else.
I realize I may not communicate this well but it helps me and I thought it may help you see God's sovereignty and that there is no free will. I will take leave on this now. Hope this causes a ray of light on the subject.
God is Great.
CIY
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