Thoughts on free will

[pylady]

Hi everyone,
Ray's teaching on free will is very thought provoking.  I had some thoughts since I heard his audiotape and would like to know your thoughts.  anyway, here goes.
  If you take a child at birth, isolate him from the world, food and water, but no communication, what would happen to that child?  He would probably die, because even though he has no influence from the world he was born with certain needs to which he is a slave.  The need for love, the need to communicate, the need to learn, etc, etc.
  But even if he lived he would be like an animal.  He would have no "free will" even though free from outside influence.  He's still  a slave to his own nature.  This child needs the outside causes to shape him and to define who he is.  Looking at it from this perspective "free will" not only seems impossible, but also becomes undesirable.
  The problem is the causes (influences) from this world shape "I"people.  "I" am the center of the world and my happiness is most important.  But, the very fact that we need each other to shape and define ourselves should teach us the "I" mentality does not lead to happiness.   Our Creator wisely created us to need each other and to fill a specific purpose within a larger whole.  And each of us must subjugate the "I" within us, and admit our dependence on our Creator, and on each other.  Let our Lord be the primary "cause" in our life.
This "whole" can never be complete without each one of us.  Perhaps that is why Jesus waits until after the White Throne Judgment is finished to turn the kingdom over to his Father.    He would never present an incomplete and/or imperfect kingdom to Him.
  I'd love to hear your thoughts on my crazy ramblings!   Sorry it's so long.     Peace, Cindy

[YellowStone]

Cindy, that was a great post and you were not rambling.

It took me a very long time to learn that free-will is not free-choice. duh

Of course we do not have free-will as many would have us to believe, because if it were even remotely true, I would be able to will the coffee to make itself each morning, but sadly I cannot. I do however, have the freedom to choose to brave the cold kitchen in order to make the coffee. Great coffee, but the choice has to be followed by an action.

However, this is where the rubber meets the road, every action is limited to the Will of God. I might choose to bench press 400lbs, but due to gravity (God) and my strengh that is never going to happen in this ilfe time. So even though I can always choose, I may not always be able to act.

You bring up an interesting topic regarding babies and the influence the world has on them, but I am really not sure if I buy into it. I think it is all God.

Because many times I have see a father who grew up in a abusive family who would rather die than harm his wife or children, while his brother is an abusive image of his father.

Why is this? Same influences, different results. I give God the credit for this. What do you think?

Love to ypu,
Darren

[Joey Porter]

One of the most common arguments I hear in favor of free will is the idea that God has to give us a "free will" so that we can genuinely choose to love and obey Him, otherwise it wouldn't be true love and obedience.  Or that God loves us so much that He gave us a "free will" to choose whether or not to love Him.  The idea is supposedly that God would somehow not be truly satisfied with His creation unless His creation possessed a free will of whether or not to choose Him.

But there is logical, opposing view to this.  The scriptures speak of God being the potter, and us being the clay.  The question that should be asked is this: 

Would an artist somehow feel less satisfied about his work if his work didn't take on its own shape and form?  I do a little bit of drawing now and again.  I have never once finished a drawing and thought to myself "Ya know, I am just not happy with this work because it turned out just how I wanted it to by my own hand.  I would rather the drawing just take on its own form, then I could genuinely be happy with it."

Looking at the "free will" debate from the potter/clay perspective of the scriptures, isn't it foolish for anyone to suggest that God couldn't be completely satisfied with His creation if His creation didn't have free will?

[pylady]

Hi Darren,

I agree, God is the first cause of everything that happens.  Wouldn't that mean that He created these worldly influences which create this "me first" culture.  But do you think that means He approves of it, even though He is the underlying cause?  I don't think He approves of it, but is using the world's ways as a tool to teach us - ultimately to teach us that we really are totally dependent upon Him, and also, because He wants it that way, dependent on each other.   Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking.  If so, I pray He correct me. 

As for why He uses a similar situation(abusive family) for two people yet causes them to react differently it is a mystery to me.  "Who can know the mind of God?"  But I do know He does it for their own good, and it will work out for their salvation!

Seems like my mind gets tied up in knots when I try to fugure these things out!  Ouch!!

    Joey,  I love the comparison of an artist and his drawing with God and His creation.  I'll have to remember that one.  thanks, it's like a small parable.

[Mickyd]

These are all great post!

Even before I was shown the Biblical truth on the myth of "Free Will", I always knew in my heart that it was a false doctrine. I've had too many things happen to me from outside influences that broke down every dream and hope of any future that I had imagined for myself.

I just blows me away that so many people can't grasp this simple, basic Biblical fact.

[gmik]

The very first thing ever to happen to us was not our free will.  We couldn't choose who to be born to, where we wanted to be born, what era, or even if we didn't want to be born at all!!

gena