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Author Topic: Great Cloud of Witnesses?  (Read 3136 times)

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sj

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Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« on: January 18, 2007, 01:06:34 AM »

Anyone have any thoughts on or know if Ray references the "Great Cloud of Witnesses" mentioned in Hebrews 12:1? Is this simply referring to the previous chapter?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 01:09:30 AM by swivel »
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Redbird

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2007, 08:13:50 AM »

Hi Josh,

It's funny that you mention this verse, cuz now, when I go out in the world, I feel I am surrounded by "a cloud of witnesses" - thanks to this forum and fellowship. Having gone through some fiery trials, there were times I felt quite alone and somewhat fearful. But Paul says:

Hebrews 12: 22-24
But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an unnumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This gives me great comfort and reminds me of his majesty - that at times I think we take for granted!

Peace to you,

Lisa
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2007, 05:49:12 PM »



Hello Swivel

In Chapter 11  Paul names the witnesses, Cain and Abel vs 4, Enoch vs 5,  Noah vs 7, Abraham vs 8 and so on and so on....

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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joyful1

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 12:45:42 PM »

Acturus--
Do you take that to mean that.... the witness of the "scriptures", things that are written about those people on "the list" of witnesses....is that what we have in the "cloud" that surrounds us?? The information in the scriptures??

Or are you saying.... that "the cloud" that surrounds us is in fact, the spirits of ALL believers??

Just curious what your take is on this...
:)  Joyce
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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 01:27:22 PM »

Arcturus,

  Got a question.  Are we not witnesses?  Then can we not be considered as part of the cloud of witnesses?  Did the by Faith chapter end with that list, or is it still being added on to today?

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 03:49:57 PM »

Hello Joyce and Anne

Joyce here is the scripture that gives a double witness. See how this compares for you as spiritual with spiritual.

1 Cor 10 : 11 Now these things befell them by way of a figure, as an example and warning to us; they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instructions, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax, their consummation and concluding period.

What surrounds us is their examples and warnings to us written to admonish us. That is what surrounds us to fit us for right action.

The dead are dead. The dead will rise again only to the first or second resurrection.  :D

The age of the OT reached its climax and consummation with the new promise brought by Christ and recorded in the NT. Paul was in that period whose days the ages reached their climax beginning the new age of the NT.

Ann here are a few scriptures that may answer your question.

 Eph 5 : 10 And try to learn in your experience what is pleasing to the Lord, let your lives be constant proofs of what is most acceptable to HIM. 11 Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead let your lives be so in contrast as to expose and reprove and convict them.

Prov 10 : 17 He who heeds instruction and correction is not only himself in the way of life, but also is a way of life for others. An he who neglects or refuses reproof, not only himself goes astray, but also causes to err and is a path toward ruin for others.

2 Cor 10 : 11 Let such people realize that what we say by letters when we are absent, we put also into deeds when we are present.

So yes, our example in words thoughts and deeds does have an influence on others! ....when we are absent as in a cloud of witness and when we are present as in do we practise what we preach :o

Lord forgive us our failures, weaknesses and liabilities and God have Mercy Grace and Unmerited Favour on us all!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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rrammfcitktturjsp

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 06:04:43 PM »

Arcturus,

  Thanks for providing some Scripture and answering my question.  Yes it does help.
 
  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

 
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Kat

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 06:24:33 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

Those in Heb. 11, that came before are indeed an example and witness of things yet to come.

I found this passage in Isaiah, and thought it could be applied here.
So this is speaking of Christ's returns.
Here He is bringing all His 'witnesses' to Him, this would have to be referring to His elect, I would think.
So is these OT examples of faith, the witnesses  ???
I would really like to have your take on how all these fit together  :-\

Isa 43:5  Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you.
v.6  I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth,
v.7  everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."
v.8  Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes, who are deaf, yet have ears!
v.9  All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true.
v.10  "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
v.11  I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
v.12  I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God.

Interesting, there is more to this than it first appeared.
So are the witnesses here the same witness of Heb. 12:1  ???

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 01:58:59 AM »

Great observations Kat.

What comes up for me reading your scripture and  question are these scriptures that perhaps are the double witness to what Isaiah is saying:

Isa 43:5  Fear not, for I am with you;

John 14 : 18 I will not leave you as orphans, comfortless, desolate, bereaved, forlorn, helpless I will come back to you…
 
 I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you.

Mat 8 : 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

v.6  I will say to the north, Give up, and to the south, Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth,

Mat 23 : 13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men ‘s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, not do you allow those who are about to go in to do so..

v.7  everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."
v.8  Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes, who are deaf, yet have ears!

John 10 : 13, 14  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep and am known of mine

Matt 7 : 24 so everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them, obeying them, will be like a sensible, prudent, practical, wise man who built his house upon the rock.

v.9  All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true.
v.10  "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Eph 4 : 11,12,13 And HIS Gifts were varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us some to be apostles, special messengers, some prophets, inspired preachers and expounders, some evangelists, preachers of the Gospel. Travelling missionaries, some pastors, shepherds of His flock and teachers. 12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints, His consecrated people, that they should do the work of ministering toward BUILDING UP Christ’s body, the church, 13 That it might develop until we all attain oneness in the faith and in  the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God, that we might arrive at really mature manhood, the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ’s own perfection, the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in HIM.

v.11  I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savoir.
v.12  I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God.

Mat 7 : 20 Therefore you shall fully know them by their fruits. 21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

You ask : So is these OT examples of faith, the witnesses 

For me,  the OT examples of faith are the witnesses as Servants and the NT examples of faith are the obedient Sons in Gods house. Isaiah was the prophetic voice of Christ not remaining fixed and applicable only to the OT but also what was foreshadowed for the NT.

Those are my thoughts Kat.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 04:55:01 PM by Arcturus »
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Kat

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Re: Great Cloud of Witnesses?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 11:23:52 AM »


Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for all the verses.

Quote
For me,  the OT examples of faith are the witnesses as Servants and the NT examples of faith are the obedient Sons in Gods house. Isaiah was the prophetic voice of Christ not remaining fixed and applicable only to the OT but also what was foreshadowed for the NT.

I think this is a good understanding, it explains it well.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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