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Author Topic: The Law  (Read 4201 times)

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Mickyd

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The Law
« on: February 01, 2007, 10:39:58 PM »

I've been in an exchange with a friend of mine over some of the Biblical truths that we've learned here...well one thing lead to another until he brought in another person whos thinking I can't really understand. I don't know if he's a Messianic Jew or what...but I know he's using the Messianic Bible for his argurments. I could really use some help here folks!!! His remarks are in "Quotes"

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt 5:17

Quote
Fulfill means to "obey" or to "show how to obey". If it meant to complete, then why does He continue this verse by saying, "not one jot or tittle will pass"?

Because He was saying, "I have come to show you people how to truly live in accordance with Torah, because I am the Living Torah". Read John 1 for proof that Yeshua IS the Torah! The living Torah, and this book is The Written Torah. These two are one and the same. Yeshua is the Torah made manifest in flesh!

 Do you believe Yeshua "fulfilled" the Law or not?

Quote
Of course He obeyed Yah's Law! That was one of the reasons why He came!

"For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing." Rom 10:4

Quote
That's right, He is The Law, the very meaning of The Written Torah, except that He is in the flesh! He is the Torah made manifest in flesh!


So that

"For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Gal 5:14

Quote
This is also right, all the Law can be obeyed with 2 commandments, Love Yah (Thus you will desire to obey all Laws pertaining to Him) and love your neighbor as yourself (Then you won't want to steal, cheat or harm him in anyway either). Thus, all the law is fulfilled (obeyed) as soon as you learn to truly do those two things. Love Yah and Love your neighbor as yourself;"

and

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He TAKETH AWAY the first, that he may establish the second." Heb 10:9

Quote
Yes but don't take that out of context. The first law will not be completed until:

1) The lion lays down with the lamb(Is 11:6-10)

2) The Torah is put on hearts and minds of the elect (chosen ones) (Jer. 31:31-34) 

3) Yeshua's enemies are made a footstool under His feet(Heb 1:13).

In the meantime, Yeshua sits at the right hand of Yah the Father. (Heb. 1:!3) The Law was a shadow of the good things to come.

That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come!

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Heb 10:1

Quote
That's right... "To come" not yet here, rather still to come! The New Covenant is currently in the process of being fulfilled. The spring feasts have been fulfilled, the autumn feasts have not. After they are fulfilled, the New Covenant will be fulfilled. More on this below.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that NO MAN is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:10 - 11

Quote
The beginning part that says," For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse", what does that mean? Does it mean to do wrong otherwise you will be punished? Of course not. This is what it means.

All men have sinned. All men have fallen short. If any man thinks that he has never sinned, or that his obedience to Torah will save him.... guess what, he is under a curse. Why, because he is like the Torah teachers in Matthew 9:13. He is over estimating himself and his compliance to Torah. He is not looking at his life from YHWH's point of view. Even if he never sins (violates Torah) again from this day on, the damage has already been done because he has sinned (violated Torah) in the past. That is why this verse continues, "No man is justified by the law". Everyone has sinned at some point in their life, and the wages for that sin is death. There is only one hope that mankind has, and I will tell it to you now:

To admit that you are a sinner (a violate of Torah) to YHWH, trust in the blood of Yeshua to pay the price for past violations of Torah, and then repent (Change into a Torah doer) in other words, obey Torah. When you obey Torah, you do not intentionally sin!

So..... trying to keep the old law (any part of it) is to suggest Yeshua did NOT fulfill it.....because if one believes he did fulfill the law, why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled, unless He secretly thinks his fulfillment of the law is not sufficient?

Quote
First, what is the "Old Law"? There is and always will be only one Law, YHWH's Law. For proof of this read Jer. 31:31-34 again. I will put my Torah on their hearts and in their minds. It doesn't say that He will put a "New Torah", it say's He will put "His Torah" on my heart and my mind. If you can find one piece of evidence that there is a new Torah coming, I would love to see it. The fact is that the same Torah that has always been, will always be.

Second, Yeshua did not end the Law. He obeyed it and showed us the perfect example of perfect obedience. Fulfill means to obey.

I know that Yeshua did obey the Law, but the writer of the above paragraph seems to think that Yeshua ended the Law. If that were the case then Matthew 5:17 says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to end it." Matt 5:17

Does that make any sense whatsoever? No!

Third, you say if someone believes Yeshua "why would he tempt God by trying to keep that which Yeshua fulfilled" what logic is in this? You make it sound like it is wrong to do right! Do you really think that disobeying YHWH is a good thing? Yeshua was sent to forgive the sins in your past and any future UNINTENTIONAL sins! Not to give you a loop hole to continue doing wrong! That is legalistic!

UNBELIEF?

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:7 - 8

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This is a true statement. That days is coming (and is not yet here) as so many seem to think it is. You will know when that day arrives because:

 1) Torah will be on my heart and mind. (Jer. 31:31-33)

***NOTE: Not a new Torah, just a New Covenant (Contract)!

2) Teaching Torah to others will not be a required because all people will know Torah instinctively. (Jer. 31:34)

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of ALL principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col 2:8-17

Quote
This is absolutely true!  Let's start with the first sentence, "Beware, lest any man spoil you" 

How would they do that?

"through philosophy and vain deceit". In other words, "Traditions of men" "after the rudiments of the world" "and not after Messiah"

Through philosophy, like saying that YHWH's Law is not required, thus blatantly opposing Yah's very own words!

Through vain deceit, in other word "empty lies". Lies such as saying that YHWH doesn't mind if you don't do what He says you are to do (Such as His Torah!)

Through Traditions of men, in other words putting man made practice above YHWH's Commands!

And note the last part "not after Messiah"! In other words, not doing as Messiah did, not LIVING TORAH!

Don't be fooled by such people!

Second sentence: "For in him" In Yeshua "dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS" lives the complete package "of the Godhead bodily" of YHWH! (In other words, in Yeshua, lived YHWH's perfect Torah)

Third sentence: "And ye are complete in him" in other words, "And you are perfect if you follow His example"

If you want me to go through line by line, let me know, send me an E-mail. Otherwise (for now) I am going to skip to the bottom portion.

Last part of this passage reads: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, OR OF THE SABBATH DAYS: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."


It basically means this, "Do not let anyone tell you that you can disobey YHWH, by eating whatever your carnal heart or stomach desires and do not let them tell you that you are doing wrong by eating what YHWH's Torah allows. Do not drink blood even if the world says you can (common practice among pagan rituals), and do not worry if these same people tell you that you are not to drink something if YHWH's Torah is not contrary to such. Do not let anyone harass you because you no longer celebrate their pagan holidays of Christmas, Easter, Halloween or any other pagan ritual, and do not let them condemn you for following those Holy Days that YHWH has prescribed as everlasting (perpetual) commandments in Torah (Lev. 23). Do not follow these pagan inhabitants of your city when they tell you that Sunday is the true day of worship, and do not let them harass you for keeping YHWH's 4th commandment of the 7th day commandment. You see, you were once part of them, but now you are set apart! You were once like that, but now you are rescued! So don't go back to that lie! You're different now! So obey Yah's Torah!

One last thing..

Think about this: What if Abraham said, "Yes I know you want me to go and sacrifice Isaac and I completely trust you and love you. The thing is this, I can't sacrifice Isaac because he is my favorite son. I trust you and I really do love you, but actually obeying you.... well now your asking a lot. I can't do it".

Now I ask you, would Abraham had been found righteous because he trusted YHWH? You see, the Scripture does not say that Abraham was found righteous because he obeyed YHWH. He was found righteous because he trusted! But, Abrahams trust was manifested in him obeying! If you trust in YHWH and Yeshua, you will obey His Torah! Obedience is the manifested form of faith, just as Yeshua is the manifested flesh (or form) of Torah! 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The Law
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 11:32:55 PM »

Hi Mickyd,

I only have time for the first one (Matt 5:17) Rotherham's has fulfill(4137) as well as the KJV.

Strongs definition is;

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

I know that Messianic Jews are still looking at things in the physical sense so I would not be surprised they would see this verse differently.

I will try to get to more tomorrow.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe
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Pax Vobiscum

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 11:50:51 PM »

Too bored tonight -- family is away and nothing on TV......

I am not sure just what kind of help you are requesting.  Help with understanding?  A couple of theological haymakers?

Here's what pops into my head (not very well thought-out, but perhaps enough to get you started):

1.  Remember that Jesus was not starting "Christianity" as he preached and healed.  He brought a new interpretation of Judaism -- He left Christianity to Paul et al.

2.  Study the Logos as an emanation from the One.  When Jesus is called the Logos, it is recalling an ancient construct.  Go way back to the Oikumene through the Axial Age and into the first century.  The Logos is a very old concept.  If you don't bump into the emanation of Wisdom as you study, then keep going.

That should keep you busy for a while.

I love the sound of two immutable "Truths" colliding!

Peace



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bobf

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Re: The Law
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 12:09:01 AM »

So which of these would he suggest we obey?

Do we NOT PITY and render eye for eye, tooth for tooth?  Or do we RESIST NOT evil?

Deuteronomy 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. 20  And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said
[ABOVE], An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Do we VOW to God and keep it?  Or do we vow NOT AT ALL?

Psalmns 76:11 Vow, and pay unto the LORD your God: let all that be round about him bring presents unto him that ought to be feared.

Mathew 5:33 Again, ye have heard
[ABOVE] that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne.

The spirit of the Law and the letter of the law are CONTRARY to one another. The letter kills, the spirit gives life. The new testament is NOT letter + spirit. This new testament is "NOT OF the letter".

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The LETTER of the law will NOT be written on anyone's heart.  Which would He write on our hearts: "Vow and keep" or "Vow not at all"?

2 Corinthians 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

It's not a mixture of old + new, letter + spirit. Only new. But ALL prefer the old for a while.

Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38  But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. 39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 12:22:11 AM by bobf »
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Bradigans

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Re: The Law
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 02:41:14 AM »

Has anybody ever heard of Donald Trump. Okay, if so you will understand that he loves buildings. I hear he has all kinds of building projects projected. With any of his buildings (eg; trump towers) there is or has been a blueprint. Did you know that once one of his buildings is up (eg; trump towers) the blueprint has been fulfilled, completed, and it's finished. Thus Jesus Christ said in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He said there's nothing you can add or subtract in John 19:30 because -  It is finished. Now labor to enter into His eternal rest Hebrews 4:11. In reference to the law Hebrews 8:5 says - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 


IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford
   

 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: The Law
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 08:15:16 AM »


Has anybody ever heard of Donald Trump. Okay, if so you will understand that he loves buildings. I hear he has all kinds of building projects projected. With any of his buildings (eg; trump towers) there is or has been a blueprint. Did you know that once one of his buildings is up (eg; trump towers) the blueprint has been fulfilled, completed, and it's finished.   [/b]


IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford
   

 

Good morning Bradigans,

Actually the blueprint or schematics of a building never lose their importance as they indicate where the rough-in mechanical portions of the building are located when a problem or situation arises. If a water main or sewage line breaks it is good to know where the pipes are located so you do not have to tear apart the floors and other structural componants on a blind mission of hit and miss.

This holds true for HVAC (heat, vent, air conditioning) as well, it is very time and cost effective to know exactly where key componants are located to reduce consequential damage. Also an Engineer stamped blueprint is critical if the building sustains damage from a storm (very relevent here in Florida) fire or flood, the blueprint will show where load bearing walls, straps, etc. were located and their load bearing capacity.

These are just a couple reasons why bluprints although not as absolutely critical as they are during the building process never lose value, are never disposable and always valuable to the builder and/or owner of the building, especially to the builder during the Warranty period.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. How did the move go? 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 08:18:21 AM by hillsbororiver »
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Bradigans

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 01:24:16 AM »

There's some truth to what you say, but yet and still the emphasis on any building is not on the blue print but the building. Yes, you still need the blueprint but i believe believers (especially the  more mature/seasoned believers that have been grounded) main focus should be on the new Testament. Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.  The kingdom is here, man. Christ ushered it in. Galatians 3:24-25 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.    You are indeed right and i feel you dear brother. Thank you dear brother, for i do indeed stand corrected. You just sharpened me. Proverbs 27:17 - Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. i don't what to be a Diotrophes 3 John 1:9. 1 Corinthians 12:13-14 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. i love you all dear brethren!! AMEN AND ALLELUIA!!!

IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford   

 



IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford
   
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 04:01:40 PM »


Hi Bradford,

You made this comment.

Quote
The kingdom is here, man. Christ ushered it in.

The kingdom is now only in the beginning stage, begotten in believers.

Matt 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The kingdom is Spirit and no one can fully enter the kingdom until they are raised Spirit.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

It is not until the resurrection at Christ's appearing, that we will be like Christ, and be spirit, as He is Spirit.

Rom 6:5  For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.

1John 3:2  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.

Just thought I would bring this out.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 12:01:37 PM by Kat »
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Bradigans

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Re: The Law
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 05:29:53 PM »

Dear sister Kat,

Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I guess that's what it's all about in the body of Christ according toProverbs 27:17 - Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Anyway, what do you think Jesus meant when He said in Luke 12:34 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. What do you think He meant when He  when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come. He said in Luke 17:20 - The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

i believe that where for some THE KINGDOM is still being proclaimed, for others they're either living in or on the brink of living and experiencing KINGDOM living.

Romans 14:17 - For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Where THE KINGDOM may be being proclaimed to some, others have entered in.


Hebrews 4:11 - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.    


IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford
       
    
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Mickyd

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Re: The Law
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 05:56:37 PM »

One thing I'm wondering is why it's called the "Law of Moses" instead of the Law of God.

"And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded ME at that time to teach you statutes and judgments,that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it." Deu 4:12-14

Could this be what is called "commandments of men"?

All of this is confusing me as well.

Were the statutes and judgments form Moses or God?
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Bradigans

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 06:18:18 PM »

Quote
Were the statutes and judgments form Moses or God?

Somebody let me know if i stand to be corrected, but i believe the statutes and judgments were from both God and Moses.

Let me explain. Exodus 7:1 - And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet (mouthpiece, exegesis). Christ came to exegesis (to declare) God and bring Him out into the physical open. Matthew 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Aaron was to Moses (sort of speak) what Christ is to God. An intermediary. Moses was Aaron's God (sort of speak). All of that (the consistency of the Mosaic law) was a type or portrait of God and Christ. i believe this is why Moses was the only man that could stand before God. He was God, but in figure only...


IN HIS LOVE,


Bradford     
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 06:56:37 PM »

Hebrews 9 : 15 Christ the Messiah (not the OT not the letter of the Law and not the Torah) CHRIST THE MESSIAH is therefore the Negotiator and Mediator of an entirely new agreement, testament, covenant, so that those who are called and offered it may receive the fulfillment of the promised inheritance - since A DEATH has taken place which rescues and delivers and redeems them from the transgressions committed under the old first agreement.
The approach offered by your friend Mickyd, appears to me to be one that wants to bypass the life death and resurrection of Christ Jesus and give importance to the OT as the saviour of man kind. The law does not save. The law giver has given the law and saves from the unattainable prerequisites of the law and He is CHRIST. CHRIST is not only the God of the OT, HE IS THE YESTERDAY TODAY AND THE TOMORROW ALPHA AND OMEGA EVER LIVING GOD.

The Torah is the old and we are warned not to put the old with the new.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 06:58:53 PM by Arcturus »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 07:24:33 PM »

Hi Bradford,

I found this email from Ray's which explains about the kingdom.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1529.0.html -------------------------

 Hi Ray,

I hope it's okay to call you Ray. I know it's a bit casual, but I feel like I know you. I've read much of the writings on your web-site and appreciate your insights. You have given me much to think about and digest. Obviously, this is very different from what I was taught in my Catholic/Baptist upbringing, so I just want to make sure I understand how all the pieces of this divine puzzle fit together.

My question is this:  In 2 Cor. 6: 9+10, Jesus says that specific sinners will not inherit the "Kingdom of God".  To what does the Kingdom of God refer? An actual place (heaven) or a state of mind? Does he mean that they will never inherit it?  And how does that fit with your view that there is no "eternal damnation"?  (I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic in any way. This is a very sincere question that I am having difficulty understanding).

Thanks for any response you have time to give.   I'm sure you are overwhelmed with e-mails.

In Christ,

Laura

PS~  Have you ever written specifically about the parable of the Wedding Banquet? That's another one that gives me trouble.  If you have it somewhere on your web-site, could you please direct me to it? Thank you.


Dear Laura:
The "Kingdom of God" is the kingdom that will rule the nations under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, composed of lesser kings, lords, priests, and judges.  These kings, lords, priests, and judges, are composed of the ranks of God's Chosen Elect Saints.

Only those worthy of the First resurrection from the death will ever rule with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Those who are judged, purified and saved in the Great White Throne Judgment will be in God's family, but they will never be rulers with Christ.

And don't ask any more detailed questions on this, because it would take hours to answer you, and I just don't have the time. Much of this material is already covered in my Lake of Fire series. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the other scripture,

Luke 17:20 - The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 14:17 - For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The Kingdom is Spirit, so it cannot be observed by those on earth, because Spirit is invsible (1Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27). As for the last part of verse 20, it means it is present in all believers as the kingdom is being built through them.
In Rom. 14 again we are talking about Spirit, so there is no need to eat or drink, and the fruit of the Spirit is righteousness, peace, and joy among others.

I hope this helps you see what I'm trying to say  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:58:23 AM by Kat »
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Mickyd

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Re: The Law
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2007, 07:29:52 PM »

The approach offered by your friend Mickyd, appears to me to be one that wants to bypass the life death and resurrection of Christ Jesus and give importance to the OT as the saviour of man kind. The law does not save. The law giver has given the law and saves from the unattainable prerequisites of the law and He is CHRIST. CHRIST is not only the God of the OT, HE IS THE YESTERDAY TODAY AND THE TOMORROW ALPHA AND OMEGA EVER LIVING GOD.

The Torah is the old and we are warned not to put the old with the new.


Actually, he says that we are to keep the entire Law of Moses, the whole 600+ commandments, while we are in the flesh because they are "his commandments" and if anyone says they love God and keeps not his commandments, he's a liar.

I've given him scripture to the contrary, but he turns them around to mean something differant. He's out there.....I'm at a loss.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Law
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 08:31:20 PM »

Hello Mickyd

You wrote :
Actually, he says that we are to keep the entire Law of Moses, the whole 600+ commandments, while we are in the flesh because they are "his commandments" and if anyone says they love God and keeps not his commandments, he's a liar.

I've given him scripture to the contrary, but he turns them around to mean something differant. He's out there.....I'm at a loss
.

Sounds to me your friend is in bondage....you say "He's out there"...so what are you doing with him? YOU know that he is out there so YOU are the one who see's! Your yolk need not be what he says but what Christ is and HIS yolk is light.

Your friend has not been given to know that yet and he assumes that works will give him salvation. There are 1050 commandments in the NT alone of which if you deleate repeats there are some 800. Christ has fulfilled the commandments and it is HIS faith that has won for Him HIS status of SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. This is a GOD THE FATHER given title not a OT stipulation upon man to achieve. CHRIST WILL COME AGAIN.  HE Christ who was dead and now lives WILL COME AGAIN.  Christ is the LIVING SPIRIT OF GOD.

Why do you think YOU are at a loss? Your friend is the one who is at the loss and out there and you can see it!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 08:36:59 PM »

Hey Kat

Do you agree that the Kingdom will not start until Christ comes again?

For now we have the promise and the hope of the Kingdom of which we pray....Thy Kingdom COME!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Mickyd

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2007, 08:48:07 PM »

Why do you think YOU are at a loss? Your friend is the one who is at the loss and out there and you can see it!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

I've told him that I can no longer participate in this exchange. I've said all I can say.

I don't know....it sad to loose another friend.

Thanks Arcturus for your insight and guidance.

Grace and Peace to you and to everyone on this thread.

I've been away from the forum for a while now...I think I'll stick around this time.
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jennie

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2007, 10:15:15 PM »

I sure hope this earth as we know it now isn't the promised Kingdom because it sure is messed up right now! Jennie
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2007, 10:25:17 PM »


Hi Arcturus,

Yes we are begotten now, we have the inheritance and promise.

Eph 5:5  For you know this, that no fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous one (who is an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

The elect will enter the the kingdom at His appearing, at the first resurrection.

2Pe 1:11  For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The kingdom of Christ will began on earth when Christ return to the earth with His elected raised and He will remove all earthly kingdoms, and all the earth and all on it will become His. 

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever."

Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

We who are hearing this truth now, have the hope of being among those few who will hear Him say, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

What a glorious day that will be, I can assure you Jenny, the earth will be much different than what it is now  :)


mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:53:57 AM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Law
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 02:45:43 AM »

Hi Kat

The Scriptures do not lie!

Question : have any of the earlier trumpets been sounded yet?

We know that the 7th is the one which raises the dead out of their graves to judgment and the reign of Christ, so we are assured that this trumpet has not been sounded yet even though some try to make out that Christ is here rule through Mystery Babylon   ::) 

I have not come across anything in Ray's teachings on whether or not any earlier trumpets have been sounded and for me, with the state of the world right now, it appears as though some if not all have been announced because we do experience what some of the trumpets associate themselves with as in deaths, famine and areas of the world that have suffered what could be poison viles or even the four horsemen.

Please, if you have any insight or could get Ray's direction on this if I have missed it through his teachings it would be appreciated if you could point me in the right direction.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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