spirit and soul

[buddyjc]

I have a question to put forth here, and that is if the spirit has no consciousness of by itself then how can God have consciousness?  There is no Scripture that says God has a 'soul.'  It is my understanding that the soul is the evidence of life, or as Strong puts it, 'a breathing creature.'  This indicates that the soul is a part of the body, but God does not have a 'body,' He is spirit, (John 4:24).  The reason I'm asking this is because I am discussing this with someone, and I want to be able to clearly explain it. 

Brian

[josh]

Buddyjc,

I am by no means a teacher, but here are some scriptures that might help you in future discussion on this subject.

We know that the words of Christ are SPIRIT... and ... LIFE.

John 6:63
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

You state:  "It is my understanding that the soul is the evidence of life"

Look at the creation account in the second chapter of Genesis 2,

Genisis 2:7
7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

From this passage, I would not state that "the soul is the evidence of life"... but rather that God's breath is the difference between a "living soul" and a soul that is dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
4: Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
20: The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

These are things that are definitely IMPOSSIBLE to understand when we attempt to grasp them in the flesh, "THE FLESH IS HOSTIL TO GOD" and "THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD," ...

Romans 8:5-9
5: For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6: To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot;
8: and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

But as God begins to move in us by the Spirit of truth, He will guide us into ALL THE TRUTH.

John 16:13
13: When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

You have stated correctly, "GOD IS SPIRIT."

John 4:24
24: God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Now, notice what it is that Christ (the Word) & the Father have in them.

John 1:1-4
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

John 5:25-27
25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.[/color]

They have life in them, and not only does God possess life.... He is "THE LIFE."

John 14:6
6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

To reason that because man has a soul and is alive, does not justify that we should assume or deduce that God must also have a soul. GOD IS NOT A MAN.

Numbers 23:19
19: God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

1 Samuel 15:29
29: And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent."

Let me point you to one more scripture, one that is often quoted:

1 Corinthians 15:43-46 (RSV)
43: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44: It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45: Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46: But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.

But take another look at it, this time in the Concordant Literal Version:

42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power.
44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.
46.But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual.

The soul is part of the "corruptible".... but one day we shall be resurrected to a life this is "incorruptible," "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM."

1 John 3:2
2: Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

The soul is part of the physical life, but it is not the evidence of life, rather God Himself is the evidence of life, for He is "THE LIFE" and "THE LIGHT OF MEN."

Hope this helps my friend.

Grace and Peace.
Josh

[Kat]

Hi Brian,

Interesting question, but how do we say what God is or is not, certainly He is conscience in whatever form He is in... He determined and created how we have conscience.

We are a body with a spirit that makes us a living soul, but I don't think God is limited to being like us.

This is from Ray's Trinity paper.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------------------------------

Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).

"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).

"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).

"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).

"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)

"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).

"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).

"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Jesus Christ represents the Father, perfectly and certainly we can see that Jesus has consciousness and the mind of God.
Here's a email that explains, Jesus represents the Father.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3261.0.html ------------------------

Dear Markus:

First, there is no such thing as a "Godhead."  It is "Divine" or "Divinity" or "Deity,"

and it means "that which pertains to God."  God the Father lived and spoke and worked

in His Son Jesus. In his body, Jesus represented God the Father. Hence, he told Philip

that when he saw Christ he also saw His Father (John 14:8-11).  "I and My Father

are ONE" (John 10:30).

God be with you,

Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Jesus was resurrected He was Spirit and He has consciousness.
Satan and the angels are spirit and they have consciousness.

Hope this helps some.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[buddyjc]

Now of course I understand that God is not a man, and that He is not like us.  My question was since God is spirit, and the spirit does not have consciousness of itself, then how can God be conscious?  This is the question that I am trying to figure out with Scripture.  Is the spirit of man, the spirit of God? 

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God 'breathed' in Gen. 2:7 seems to indicate that the spirit that is in man is a part of that spirit of God.  This would make sense seeing the spirit returns to God. 

[hart4god]

Hey Brian,

-funny you are having the same type of discussion I have been having with my friend about the nature of the human spirit. I posted last week, I think, under the topic of "eternal human spirit?".

anyway- I am no genius when it comes to posting, but I think we probably need to understand that our life-giving spirit from God is not of the same  properties as God is Spirit. God is not like us.

One of the areas that my friend ( and I ) stumble over repeatedly is the wording in Genesis that states: Let us make man in our own image......and in the image and likeness.....etc. So my friend just slaps her hands together and says, "That's it, God is Spirit; we are made in His image, so we are spirit, too!" A  little frustrating to say the least.

simple Truth is much harder than I ever thought.

Hope you get a lot of great answers here because I am needing the same!

blessings,
judie h.

[gmik]

Hi Brian.  Can't help you at all, but it is just good to see you posting again.  Did you get any of those tornadoes near you??  Hope not.

gena

[josh]

Judie H.

Now I'm no hebrew scholar, but I thought you might find this interesting... in regards to your friend's statement:

"That's it, God is Spirit; we are made in His image, so we are spirit, too!"

In the Hebrew, Genisis 1:27 literally translated into:

"and-he-is-creating Elohim the human in-image-of-him in-image-of Elohim he-creates him male and-female he-creates him."

Has God "created" man in His own image or is God "creating" man in His own image. There is a big difference.

Grace and Peace.
Josh

[hart4god]

Josh,

That is it exactly!

but it is soooooo true that unless The Spirit gives you eyes to see and ears to hear, that it totally "tilts" the carnal mind.

-as all this did in the beginnnig with me as well.

It takes a  lot of courage to have your boat rocked! I so pray that our friends will have their eyes opened.....and yet, until then we can only love them and pray.....and speak the truth as we are led.

All posts on this topic have been very helpful to me.

thanks and blessings,
judie h.

[buddyjc]

Hi Brian.  Can't help you at all, but it is just good to see you posting again.  Did you get any of those tornadoes near you??  Hope not.

gena

No, we didn't get any tornadoes.  They were all north of us.  I pray for those who did though, it was a bad storm.  It's good to be back with my online family.  God bless you gena. 

[Kat]

Hi Brian,

My question was since God is spirit, and the spirit does not have consciousness of itself, then how can God be conscious?

I'm thinking that the spirit in man does not have consciousness when it leaves the body,
because God causes it to sleep, so to speak.
Now does God, as Spirit, have consciouness and what is consciousness?

CONSCIOUSNESS, n.
1. The knowledge of sensations and mental operations, or of what passes in ones own mind; the act of the mind which makes known an internal object.

So can we see in scripture that God has a mind, and that would mean consciousness.

Rev 17:17  For God gave into their hearts to do His mind (1106), and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled.

G1106
γνώμη
gnōmē
cognition, that is, (subjectively) opinion, or (objectively) resolve (counsel, consent, etc.):
advice, + agree, judgment, mind, purpose, will.

Rom 8:27  And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind (5427) of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

G5427
φρόνημα
phronēma
(mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).

These are the only 2 scripture I could find,
which used the word that had the meaning of the mind of God.

Hope it helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Seek and Find]

You answer your own question (He is spirit, (John 4:24) 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. We do not have life inherent we are flesh and blood we have to eat, drink, sleep and everything in between. One thing I have learned man is the only creature that God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. With God there is no past, present or future. They are all one and the same to God so when God says (Let Us make man in Our image) God sees us as we will be. We will be born again as a spirit. As flesh and blood we have only a earnest (down payment) of the Spirit. This here opens a lot of scriptures (calls those things which do not exist as though they did).




Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them

Romans 4

17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did.

John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.


2 Corinthians 1

20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Peace in Christ

Steve

[Sorin]

anyway- I am no genius when it comes to posting, but I think we probably need to understand that our life-giving spirit from God is not of the same  properties as God is Spirit. God is not like us.

I think that nails it. Our life-giving spirit [breathe of life] is not of the SAME PROPERTIES as God. That's why God even though He is Spirit has consciousness and we don't or our spirits don't.

[josh]

Buddyjc,

You state:

"My question was since God is spirit, and the spirit does not have consciousness of itself, then how can God be conscious?"

What is the scriptural witness for this?

Grace and Peace.
Josh

[buddyjc]

Buddyjc,

You state:

"My question was since God is spirit, and the spirit does not have consciousness of itself, then how can God be conscious?"

What is the scriptural witness for this?

Grace and Peace.
Josh

Ecc 9:10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The spirit goes back to God who gave it, and the dead know not anything, so the spirit does not have consciousness of itself. 

The reason I ask the question in the first place is because of certain Scripture that says, 'His spirit was troubled.'  Why doesn't it say 'His soul was troubled?' 

Gen 41:8  And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh. 

Job 21:4  As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?   

Dan 2:1  And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.

The word 'spirit' in these passages is 'ruach' and not 'nephesh.'  It is these passages that are being used to prove that we 'go to heaven' and 'experience bliss.'  This is why the question is asked, in order to answer another that has asked the question of me. 

[josh]

Buddyjc,

Let me start off by saying that I am not attempting to challenge you, but rather, I am hopefully providing you dialogue that will help us both reach a better understanding of this topic.

Ecc. 9:5, 9:10, make some interesting statements:

"...there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest..."

"...the dead know not any thing..."

However, I do not believe these verses are can be used to prove that "the spirit has no consciousness of itself"... the spirit returns to God, it does not go to the grace (where there is no work, device, knowledge, or wisdom.)

Now look at Eccl. 12:7:

"...then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it..."

Let me ask you a question. Is the spirit we have now and when we die will return to God, the same spirit we will have in the resurrection?

Grace and Peace.

Josh

[M_Oliver]

Buddyjc,

You state:

"My question was since God is spirit, and the spirit does not have consciousness of itself, then how can God be conscious?"

What is the scriptural witness for this?

Grace and Peace.
Josh

Hopefully I was not dreaming but I have memory of Ray saying or writing this.  I think it was a tangent comment and he was not pointing to Scripture at the time so I can't help you there...

Mark

[sansmile]

Let me ask you a question. Is the spirit we have now and when we die will return to God, the same spirit we will have in the resurrection?

Grace and Peace.

Josh

Josh, still working out how to quote what someone said??? So that is why i have posted above part of what you said.

What springs to my mind is this scripture:

(Jer 1:5)  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

So, that to me says, He knew us before He even breathed that breath into us, so He will know when and how and how to resurrect that spirit back??? What do others think??


Sandie

[M_Oliver]

What GOOD would it be for us to experience evil in this lifetime if we don't remember a darned thing when we are resurrected?  I remember a thread some time ago about this topic.  I think it was agreed that we retain this experience.

Mark

[sansmile]

Oliver, i would agree, but those that are of the elect will rule, because they have recognised and learned from His chastening. Was talking to hubby about this last night. Imagine, what is going to be like for for those that believe in eternal hell!  Waking from sleep, then being told they will go through the lake of fire, imagine their fear, they will think it is for eternity. Imagine their thankfulness and how they WILL worship Him (every knee shall bow) that saves them from that. After Jesus's rule on earth, there willl be NO memory of pain and suffering, because ALL will BE in Him, Our Father. Awesome!!!

Love Sandie x

[buddyjc]

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html

Ray-

Good work. Would you clarify 2 things for me?

1. If languages/tongues come forth in genos/ones birth language, why do they need interpretation? Doesn't the need for interpretation suggest that there may be a language discernable only by the spirit (by a spiritual/prophetic interpreter)?

2. As Sheol is the grave, and we are dead and unperceiving when in it, how do we reconcile Luke saying Jesus' spirit went right up to Heaven while His body remained in the earth? I always thought this indicated that when we die our bodies await resurrection, but our spirits go to be with God. What am I missing? 

Please respond, but thanks, either way,
Lisa


Dear Lisa:
The answer to your question on languages/tongues is found in I Cor. 14:22--"Wherefore languages/tongues are for a sign, NOT to them that believe, but to them THAT BELIEVE NOT...."
There is your answer. The Church uses "speaking in tongues" as a SIGN UNTO THEMSELVES, at their own meetings where they are not in the company of strangers who do not believe, for the most part. Now then, Lisa, if as you suggest these languages/tongues were something other than REAL LANGUAGES used by real people on this earth, then how, pray tell, could the be a "SIGN" to the to those who "believe not?"  Would they believe that some "mumbo jumbo" tongue was a miracle from God?  NO!  But if someone not knowing any foreign languages could speak to those of a foreign language IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, then it would serve as a "SIGN" from God. But none of the congregation would benefit from it unless there was someone TO INTERPRET for their "edification, exhortation, and comfort" (Ver. 3).

Your second question. No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David.  Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.

God be with you,

Ray


Quoted:  http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html

Ray,
I am new to searching for my spiritual beliefs. I agree with you that we will not spend eternity in torture. My question is - I think I under stand the definition of reincarnation now. Are you saying that our spirit will become a new being? Maybe more than once until we ascend to heaven to be with GOD. I read that, are spirit will no nothing. Does that mean after one new life to the next our spirit will not remember any of the thing that have happened to us.

To me if we don't retain anything it would be pointless.

I am not saying that is what you meant I'm just asking.

I think every spirit is on a journey and will eventually be with GOD in the end.

I think our lives here are so we can learn feel and experience good and evil. When we are ready to go to heaven is when we learn that evil is bad and don't want it anymore so we can live eternally in good in heaven.  Could you tell me your thoughts on this.

thanks, Aaron


Dear Aaron:
You are not paying attention to my writings. The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.
God be with you,
Ray

Quoted:  http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html

Ray,

   I enjoy your writings.  I have been studying you writings for several months.  Trying the Spirits if you will.  I love the way you use scripture after scripture.

   In  installment 16 part C of the lake of fire series section "Satan's Trinity of Man" you condemn the idea of the Body, Soul, and Spirit being 3 separate things.  In all of your writings it seems that you feel that the flesh and soul are the same in which you have a lot of convincing scripture.   Please explain 2 Thess 5:23 where the body, soul, and spirit are listed separately as 3 separate things.  Also in Heb 4:12 the joints and marrow (flesh) soul and spirit are divided by the sword of the of the word of God.

   Thanks
   Walan


   Dear Waylan:

   It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul."  Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.  Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL.  Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood?  Good.

   God be with you,

   Ray

Exactly!  And this is the reason for the question concerning SCRIPTURE that says, 'His SPIRIT was trouble or grieved.'  It does not say the man's 'soul' was troubled, but his 'spirit' was troubled.  My son and I were discussing dichotomy and trichotomy.  These passages came up.  My son is pretty sharp, and I need to explain these passages. 

Brian