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Author Topic: Why are there athiests?  (Read 4201 times)

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Why are there athiests?
« on: February 04, 2007, 09:35:23 AM »

Below is an e-mail to Ray that provoked a memory of some TV preacher castigating unbelievers, atheists, etc. saying they better wake up before they feel the wrath of the Lord or some such threat as that, I was struck at the time that this eternal pit of hellfire and torture that is threatened and taught is exactly the reason some do not believe in a god like this, somehow the real God has placed in their hearts that He is not of a nature as to punish for eternity for temporal mortal acts or thoughts, He has yet to reveal Himself to them but at least they know who He is not.


How can some (christian) folks see this as a minor issue (yes, deep down I know why), truly amazing though.........
   





Letter to Hagee
« on: Yesterday at 10:01:15 AM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your message to John Hagee was just goofy. I can't believe you spent all of that time and effort on that just because he said forever and ever. You more or less just used him to try to build up your own interpretations. It's extremely unlikely he was at all thinking about the Greek words for ever and ever when he said them, even if it "was" directly after a statement about the exactness of the Greek language only seconds before.. But, as you wish. I personally think most of you think way too hard about most of this stuff anyway. Jesus never spent years writing about all the deep hidden stuff that the scripture he spoke surely had to have meant because well look at this and look at that. He merely said it is written. Face value. How are you ever peaceful when you're always all wired and wound up like that?
     
    Angela
     

    I wouldn't characterize myself as "all wired and wound up," but if it makes you feel superior to me spiritually to say so, so be it.
    Jesus didn't need to "write about" the meaning of aion/aionios, as everyone then fully understood the meaning of these words. Theologians had not yet decided to deceive the dumb sheep to believe in "ENDLESS ages" (a concept totally foreign to the Scriptures). And what does it matter? What does it matter that heretics like Hagee teach boys and girls that God is going to torture inhumanely most of the human race INCLUDING BOYS AND GIRLS for trillions and trillions and trillion and trillions of quadrillions of for evers and evers and evers and evers, all the while their eyes are melting out of their heads and their brains are cooking like bacon over white heat for trillions and trillions of forevers and forevers and forevers........................  Yes, what does that really matter?  What does it matter that he sells movies of such utter spiritual pornography on public TV, and has little children viewing this utter spiritual and religious FILTH? The sad thing is that some of his followers are almost as sick in mind, spirit, and soul, as Hagee himself. Maybe you need to wake up, Angela, and smell the stench of such religious rot diseasing the minds of the people.  Mine is a just and Scriptural cause.
    God be with you,
    Ray


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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 01:52:00 PM »

Hello Joe

This scripture came to mind in response to …..How can some (christian) folks see this as a minor issue (yes, deep down I know why), truly amazing though......... 

1 Tim 4 : 2 Through the hypocrisy and pretensions  of liars whose consciences are seared, cauterised with a hot iron

then the thought followed that this seared cauterised conscience will be un seared in the chastising fire of God’s judgment that ushers repentance through the unsealing of eyes that do not see and ears that can not hear.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 06:31:37 AM »

Hi Joe and Arcturus

It has always interested me how many atheists and agnostics don't convert even after hearing the "Turn or Burn" message. I'm inclined to agree with you Joe, this non-conversion actually coming from a lack of belief that this "god" would really do such a thing as torture them forever. Christendom's "gospel" only makes sense to those who are under the influence of her wine. The sober ones don't buy it.

Adding to what you were saying Arcturus, God's chastening fire is the "sobering up", so to speak.

God bless.
andrevan.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2007, 08:10:29 PM »

 God's chastening fire is the "sobering up", so to speak......

That is so true andrevan!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2007, 08:29:07 PM »

Hi Rodger,

I can see what your point, remember the old saying; "There aren't any atheists in foxholes."

Joe
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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2007, 08:30:27 PM »




LOL ........ exactly  !!!

Rodger
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Phazel

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 03:01:11 AM »


Well, athiests are no different than we are.   If no one has free will then God has them right where he wants them in his plan for all of humanity.  They are just being taught what they need to be taught.

That said, it is interesting tho that alot of athiests will not really challenge someone whos biblical perspective does not condemn them to an eternal hell.  In fact sometimes I think they are shown by God at times  that thier "argument" for being an athiest tends to rest on the ability to refute the christian doctrines, not Gods word.

 But I can see where it is a matter of an athiest being of Gods will. I know one case specifically where an Athiest caused a bible thumping christian to end up reading and believing the perspective of Rays site and completely changed how he treated everyone.  That person ended up being the one who first introduced me to rays teachings and  my spiritual life has never been the same since.

Just one more thing where I am now fully convinced that free will is indeed a myth and I no longer have any trouble understanding.
Explaining it to someone else is indeed a challenge because like me and probably most everyone else, it takes Gods intervention to make it understandable.

Now, a Christian will  say that  athiest is still going to hell.

But as we have been shown the truth of Gods nature, it is all a part of his way of teaching us and that journey is so exciting when we see things like that.
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 03:35:26 PM »

I enjoy that this Forum is a place of like mind expecially when I read a post like the one you have offered Phazel.

To add to what you observe, here is an excerpt from an e-mail response from Ray posted yesterday under Plan of God:

This creation serves God's perfect plan.
That most of the human race is carnal, hates God, and is living in total deception
of anything that God is doing, is also a great and needful purpose in God's plan.


I think this fits with what you have also expressed.

In the broarder sense it also answers why there are athiests and also why there are those who have ears and do not hear and also why there are those who have eyes and do not see.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 03:39:39 PM by Arcturus »
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Pax Vobiscum

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 03:56:29 PM »

I have always asked my atheist acquaintences to explain how they can not believe in something that does not exist!

The conversation usually goes into a much different direction at that point.

Peace
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Seek and Find

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 11:11:00 AM »






Atheists are not interested in God or the scriptures, scriptures were not written for atheists or the unbelieving.


Matthew 13
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

1 Corinthians 1
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness.

Psalm 14
1 The fool has said in his heart,
         “There is no God.”
         They are corrupt,
         They have done abominable works,
         There is none who does good.

Psalm 53
1 The fool has said in his heart,
         “There is no God.”
         They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity;
         There is none who does good.

Proverbs 28


26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
      But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.



Jeremiah 17

5 Thus says the LORD:


      “ Cursed is the man who trusts in man
      And makes flesh his strength,
      Whose heart departs from the LORD.


Steve


Peace in Christ
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 01:00:30 PM »

To All,

  I used to be an atheist that was very strong in atheism.  I have traveles the gamut of different religious beliefs.  The reason I was an atheist, was not becuase of whether I saw the truth or not, I just did not want to be accountable.

  If Joe agrees with this link, than I will re-modify my post and include it here.

  I found out that I had to have More faith to be an atheist than where I am now.

  But remember in all of this brothers and sisters, we shall all be saved.  When I was an atheist, I did not feel pressured by those "Turn or Burn" messages.  I will say that was the roughest time of my life becuase I had no one to lean on but myself, and I was a very shaky foundation.

  Great thread.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

 
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 07:39:48 PM »

I like to tell  Athiests that ...

"GOD HAS SET ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF EVERY MAN"...(Proverbs)

Therefore, I know that they are just lying to themselves, and God must convict them and convince them :) :).
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2007, 01:02:51 AM »

Susan

This might interest you.

From Lake of Fire Part 15 C

GOD DID NOT PUT ‘ETERNITY’ IN THE HEART OF MANKIND

Next we read in verse 11:

“…He set the world in their heart…”

Which a few translations render even worse as

“…He set eternity in their heart…”

Then we are told that the reason for setting the “world” or “eternity” in their heart is:

“…so that no man can find out the work that God makes…”

There is absolutely no way to understand this Scripture as it is translated in the King James and some other modern English Versions. Let’s see if we can get some clarification on this phrase from a few other translations:

The New Revised Standard Version: “He has made everything suitable for its time…”

The New American Bible: “He has made everything appropriate to its time…”

A New Translation by James Mottatt: “He assigned each to its proper time, but for the mind of man He has appointed mystery…”

Concordant Literal Old Testament: “He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart…”

Some of you may be asking, “Well, how are these translations any better?” Well, they are better—much better.

A little help from Strong’s Concordance:   As we have seen above, the word translated “world” and “eternity” by some translations, is rendered as “mystery” and “obscurity” by others, and it is taken from the Hebrew word olam. Here is what we read in Strong’s:

“#5769, olam, from #5956; prop. concealed.”

So “mystery” or “obscurity” are certainly very close to this definition.

Next notice the last verse of the last chapter in Ecclesiastes:

“For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil” (Ecc. 12:14).

The word translated “secret” here is the Hebrew word alam. And here is what we read in Strong’s: #5956; a prim. root; to veil from sight, i.e. conceal.”

The first definition of #5760, olam is concealed; and #5760, olam is taken from #5956, alam and its definition is veil or conceal.

I went through this slightly technical explanation to prove to you the real meaning of this verse. The understanding of this verse will greatly assist our understanding of the Sovereignty of God and man’s absence of anything akin to a “free will” which could operate independently from God.

Let’s read the last version of this verse again:

“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.”  (Ecc. 3:11).

So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation!

We have hundreds of Scriptures that verify the fact that God does do according to His plan and intention, always, and everywhere, but there are few verses as this verse which tells us specifically how He had HID [concealed, obscured] this marvelous operation from the eyes of carnal humanity as this verse does.

But Jesus Christ can set us free from the carnal mind, and give us spiritual discernment, and increase our knowledge, and make us wise so that we can understand. Here then is the revelation of a major mystery:

God uses mankind with his “obscured heart” to do all of His intentions without mankind every consciously knowing that God is working His purpose through them—“so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.”

THE KING OF ASSYRIA’S OBSCURED HEART
VERSUS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

Last time I said that I would show you in the Scriptures an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed free will, whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

Isaiah 10:5-17:

“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings…

As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [at the hands of the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks.

For he says, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up [God], or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood [but rather something with free will and the power of self-determinism].

Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle it burning like the burning of a fire. And the light of Israel shall be for fire, and His Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day”

That section of Scripture is pretty much self-explanatory. This is a perfect example where God fills in the whys and wherefores of how He operated and worked with the king of Assyria to punish His people, Israel.

But this is also how God works with all kings and presidents, and heads of corporations, and heads of families, and all humanity. God “…works ALL according to the counsel of His Own will.” But just like the King of Assyria, not so is all humanity thinking in THEIR heart. They don’t believe that God uses them on a daily basis just as He did with the King of Assyria. That’s because:

“He [God] has made everything FITTING in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does from the beginning to the end.” (Ecc. 3:11). 

What an amazing Scripture. Imagine a preacher ever giving a sermon on a Scripture as “OBSCURE” as this?

Back in Gen. 50:20, we have another excellent example of how God put “obscurity” into the hearts of Joseph’s brothers. They, like the Assyrian King, had one plan in their hearts, while God was using them for His plan—a totally different plan: 

“And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

Did Joseph understand in his “obscured” heart that it was GOD sending him to Egypt to do His will? No. Did the King of Assyria understand in his “obscured” heart that it was God sending him to Jerusalem to do His will? No. Does Christendom understand in their “obscured” hearts that it is God sending them to deceive the world and to blaspheme His name through their evil doctrines? No.

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers [rillets—small brooks] of water:  He turns [directs] it whithersoever he will [desires]” (Prov. 21:1).

It is not in a king to direct his ways, neither is it in ALL MANKIND to direct his steps:

“O Lord, I know that the way of man [Heb: ‘Adam, a human, mankind] is NOT in himself [or in his presumed free will] it is not IN man [‘not in MANKIND’] that walks to direct his steps”  (Jer. 10:23).

If mankind cannot direct his own steps: Who then does direct his “steps?”

“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘STEPS’] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).

All is OF God.


This true perspective really helped my understanding after I heard the Babylonian Priest teach heresy on this topic. It is so wonderful to be set free and a blessing to have "come out" don't you think! :D
Maybe others here can enjoy this teaching from Ray that you touched on Sue!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)


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iris

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2007, 01:56:25 AM »

Yes, I can see that too.
Some don't believe in the bible at all because of issues such as hellfire. It is all Gods plan.
Which he will take care of in the judgement and everyone will be saved.

Thanks Arcturus for sharing that, it was helpful.


Iris
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2007, 02:37:15 PM »

Iris

It makes me happy when anyone receives and digests and assimilates or swallows without any problem and no contest,  the wonderful food of truth that Ray is sharing. I do not know how anyone can actually reject what Ray writes!...I don't want to know either! :D

Peace to you

Arcturus  :)
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rrammfcitktturjsp

  • Guest
Re: Why are there athiests?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2007, 02:40:12 PM »

Arcturus,

  me either.


  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
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