Dreams?

[rk12201960]

Hi all,
I was wondering can anyone inlighten me on dreams, or have some scriptures to share with me. I'm still confused by BTG on this matter.

Thanks
Your brother in Christ
Randy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Randy

Acts 2 : 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prpphesy, telling forth the divine counsels and your young men shall dream divinely suggested dreams. 18. Yes, and on My men servants also and on My maidservants in those days I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy telling forth the divine counsels and predicting future events pertaining especially to God's kingdom. (Amplified Translation)

Acts 2 : 17 "In the Last Days",  God says,
"I will pour out my Spirit
  on every kind of people;
Your sons will prophesy,
  Also your daughters;
Your young men will see visions,
   Your old men dream dreams.
When the time comes,
  I'll pour out my Spirit
On those who serve me, men and women both,
  And they'll prophesy." (The Message Translation)

1 Cor 14 : 1-3 Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire this love, make it your aim, your great quest; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments, gifts, ESPECIALLY that you may PROPHESY, interpret the divine WILL and PURPOSE in inspired preaching and teaching. 23...the one who prophesies, who INTERPRETS THE DIVINE WILL AND PURPOSE in inspired preaching and teaching, speaks to men for their up building and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

The teachings on The Myth of Free will and ALL of the teachings here at BT from Ray, do the work of interpreting the Divine Will and Purpose and is proclaimed in "everyday speech...letting others in on the truth so that they can grow and be strong and experience His presence...."The Message Translation

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Randy Asked:

I was wondering can anyone inlighten me on dreams, or have some scriptures to share with me. I'm still confused by BTG on this matter.

Not sure who or what BTG is, so I cannot comment on their interpretation or reasoning:)

However, it is interesting that the word "dream" only appears in the Greek (NT) Scriptures seven (7) times; six (6) of those being in Matthew. (below)

Mat 1:20

• But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 2:12

• And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Mat 2:13

• And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mat 2:19

• But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Mat 2:22

• But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Mat 27:19

• When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

It is now interesting that of these six occupancies of "dream"
 3 times - The angel of the Lord appeared (A messenger)
 2 times - Being warned of God (A message)
 1 time  - Suffered many things (A glimpse of what is to come)

Definitely nothing in these dreams that needed interpreting, unlike those of the Hebrew (OT) Scriptures.

The only other time that the word "dream" was used was in Acts.

Act 2:17

• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Old men shall dream dreams, must mean that the dreams of these old men will be very different than the everyday dreams most everyone has. Even in this verse there is no hint of interpretation being needed.

So with these Scriptures as being my only means for discernment I do not believe that we should give to much credence to dreams, especially if they are not clearly understood as those in the above Scriptures.

This is of course my understanding that has been given to me through the Word of God.

Comments are always welcome.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[rk12201960]

Wow,
Thanks guys.
That is a complete answer to my question. Its a blessing how Gods word talks in
many ways but are in harmony.
the way of the answers mean just as much and the answers them-selfs.
Thanks for the blessing guys.
In Christ
your brother
Randy. 

P.S.
Sorry . BTG = BABYLON, THE GREAT

Its what I read in Rays Lake of Fire.

[Deborah-Leigh]

There are 34 Dreams of Scripture 12 of which are recorded in the NT.

Joseph of Mary Mt 1 : 20
Joseph of flight to Egypt Mt 2 : 13
Joseph of returning home Mt 2 : 19
Joseph of Herod Mt 2 : 22
The wise men of warning Mt 2 : 12
Pilate's wife, of Jesus Mt 27 : 19
Cornelius of an angel Acts 10 : 3-6
Peter of animals Acts 10 : 10-16
Paul, of a man Acts 16 : 9
Paul of going to Rome Acts 23 : 11
Paul, of safety Acts 28 : 23-24
John of Christ Rev 1 : 12-18




From LOF part 5.....

Ref : 7 Spiritual Keys to unlock scripture : "Knowing this FIRST, that no prophecy of the scripture is of a PRIVATE interpretation. (Gk: 'is becoming it's OWN explanation') (2Pet. 1:20)

"...comparing (or: 'matching@) SPIRITUAL things with SPRITUAL" 1 Cor 2 : 13)

Ref: Lake of Fire L. Ray Smith Part 5

First from the Concordant Greek Text in an "Ultraliteral English Sublinear": "...this BEFORE-most KNOWING that EVERY BEFORE-AVERment OF-WRITing OWN ON-LOOSing NOT IS-BECOMING."
Rendered in the Translation as: "...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation."—Concordant Literal New Testament
Next from the Emphatic Diaglott English Interlineary: "...this first knowing, that all prophecy of a writing, of its OWN loosing not it is."
Rendered in the Translation as: "This first ascertaining, That All Prophecy of Scripture is not of its OWN Solution"—The Emphatic Diaglot, A New Emphatic Version.
I go to all these extra efforts of showing you the Greek so that you can be convinced yourself and not just believe that this is "my interpretation" of how a verse can or cannot be "interpreted."
3. "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).


THE KEYS TO SPIRITUAL INTERPRETATION

We will consider four guiding Scriptures:
1. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" (II Pet. 1:20).
The KJV is not the best translation of this verse—it is neither by far the worst. The word "private" tends to fog the understanding of this Scripture. If no Scripture is to be of a "private" interpretation, are we to look for a "PUBLIC" interpretation? That sounds silly.
This is a profoundly important verse when it comes to interpreting Scripture. Yet, I doubt that there are many who understand this verse.
The Greek word translated "private" in the KJV is the word idios, and although it can mean private or separate, more specifically it has reference to "one's OWN" or "his OWN" or "their OWN" or "your OWN" or "OWN." In this case, it would mean "ITS own" as a prophecy is non-personal and inanimate. See Strong's Greek Dictionary p. 119. Now notice a couple of translations that retain this definition:
First from the Concordant Greek Text in an "Ultraliteral English Sublinear": "...this BEFORE-most KNOWING that EVERY BEFORE-AVERment OF-WRITing OWN ON-LOOSing NOT IS-BECOMING."
Rendered in the Translation as: "...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation."—Concordant Literal New Testament
Next from the Emphatic Diaglott English Interlineary: "...this first knowing, that all prophecy of a writing, of its OWN loosing not it is."
Rendered in the Translation as: "This first ascertaining, That All Prophecy of Scripture is not of its OWN Solution"—The Emphatic Diaglot, A New Emphatic Version.
I go to all these extra efforts of showing you the Greek so that you can be convinced yourself and not just believe that this is "my interpretation" of how a verse can or cannot be "interpreted."
So now we can make sense out of this verse, and how profound it is. It destroys the carnal minded approach to Scriptural interpretation. So here is what God is teaching us. No prophetic statement (Revelation is prophecy—See Rev. 22:18, "...the words of the prophecy of this scroll") has within its OWN statement the explanation and fulfillment of that statement. Therefore it is wrong and unscriptural to insist that the very verse that contains the prophecy (such as "the lake of fire. This is the second death") has within itself the interpretation of itself. That's what God has now taught us in II Pet. 1:20! Therefore, we must go elsewhere to find the correct interpretation. But how do we do that without making blunders and mistakes? We have three more Key verses that will keep us on the right track.
2. "It is the spirit that quickens [makes alive]; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT and they are life."
We touched on this verse already, but it is an important part of our four-verse key. Again I ask: Who believes this verse? If the words that Jesus spoke are "spirit," then how can anyone suggest that everything He said must be taken "literally?" Christ taught in public by parables only. Parables are spiritual, not literal. The book of Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ," therefore the words of the book of Revelation are SPIRIT! The book of Revelation was "signified" (that is SYMBOLIZED). It is a whole book of symbols, metaphors, and figurative language. Therefore the metaphor: "the lake of fire which is the second death" must be spiritual! But how do we discern things that are "spiritual?"
We need another key.
3. "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).
And so when I explain spiritual things, I get a lot of e-mail from Christians who condemn me in not too flattering tones, because they are carnal and cannot possibly receive spiritual things. They truly are FOOLISHNESS to them. They ask me if I can't read. They tell me the verse ITSELF tells us what it means. (But isn't that just what Peter said cannot be done? That no verse of prophecy explains ITSELF)?
There are reasons God put these verses in the Scriptures.
Remember earlier when we discussed how theologians compare physical things with physical things thinking that they will accomplish something spiritual? Show me a Scripture where God instructs us to compare physical things with physical things for spiritual understanding? SHOW ME! David said "A good understanding have all they that KEEP God's commandments." The problem with all too many is that they don't obey God ("Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE" Rom. 8:7), and they don't believe God. We MUST believe God when we are told that the book of Revelation is the words of Jesus Christ and therefore is SPIRIT! Next I will give you one of God's commandments we are to follow if we are to ever understand such things as "the lake of fire."

The Scriptures don't command us to compare physical things with spiritual things or spiritual things with physical things or physical things with physical things, so why do we do it?

That is exactly how theologians have come to believe that the lake of fire and second death are literal physical tortures for all eternity. They have compared physical fire with physical fire and came up with the conclusion that the lake of fire is physical, material, literal FIRE! God never instructed us to learn spiritual lessons in this manner!
Next we will see how God does instruct us to understand SPIRITUAL MATTERS.

4. "Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth [not by comparing physical things with physical things], but which the HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES; COMPARING [OR MATCHING] SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 2:13)!
This is really quite profound. "


Peace be to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus wrote:

Darren states :  I do not believe that we should give to much credence to dreams, especially if they are not clearly understood as those in the above Scriptures. This is of course my understanding that has been given to me through the Word of God.

If John did not give credence to his dreams, especially if it was not clearly understood .....then we would not have the book of Revelations because John did not understand what he saw. He was instructed to write it down not to understand it! 

If Joseph, the wise men, Cornelius Peter and Paul did not pay attention or give credence to their dreams.....just figure!.....   

Good morning Arcturus I thank you for your input and appreciate deeply your perspective.

I too struggled over the same Scriptures that you posted.

Here is why I did not include them:

Dream (onar) [3677]

Outline of Biblical Usage :
1) a dream

Root Word: (Unknown in Strongs)

Vision (horama) 3705

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

Root Word: horao [3708]

   1) to see with the eyes
   2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
   3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
   4) to see, to look to
      a) to take heed, beware
      b) to care for, pay heed to
   5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

Trance (ekstasis) [1611]

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) any casting down of a thing from its proper place or state, displacement

2) a throwing of the mind out of its normal state, alienation of mind, whether such as makes a lunatic or that of a man who by some sudden emotion is transported as it were out of himself, so that in this rapt condition, although he is awake, his mind is drawn off from all surrounding objects and wholly fixed on things divine that he sees nothing but the forms and images lying within, and thinks that he perceives with his bodily eyes and ears realities shown him by God.

3) amazement, the state of one who, either owing to the importance or the novelty of an event, is thrown into a state of blended fear and wonderment

Do you see my dilemma? I could not in Truth tie the occurance of the usage of "dream" as a "vision" or "trance" like state. Certainly the two words have no common ground in meaning, although contextually it would appear that they do. Is this a fundamental mistake in "our" understanding? Is a dream a vision? The Greek Scriptures do not support this by the words used. (Any help on this would be greatly appreaciated)

Here are all of the usages of the word "Vision" that I could find in the Greek Scriptures.

Mat 17:9

• And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Luk 1:22

• And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

Luk 24:23

• And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

Act 9:10

• And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.

Act 9:12

• And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Act 10:3

• He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

Act 10:17

• Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Act 10:19

• While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Act 11:5

• I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Act 12:9

• And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

Act 16:9

• And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

Act 16:10

• And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Act 18:9

• Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

Act 26:19

• Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Rev 9:17

• And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

I agree with you Arcturus that "visions" are in need of interpretation.

Returning to what you said in part: "If John did not give credence to his dreams, especially if it was not clearly understood .....then we would not have the book of Revelations"

I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement if John had been dreaming, but I do not believe that he was. In Rev 9:17, he states that: "I saw the horses in the vision"

Was he sleeping during the time of this vision. possibly; but the Scriptures do not support that he was dreaming, it was more than that.

Please note, that there is no pride in this post, I am merely on a quest for the discovery of Truth.

Love in Christ,
Your Brother,
Darren

[Redbird]

Could it be that dreams come to those who are sleeping, visions come to those who are awake?  I see them as being different also.

Peace, Lisa

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Lisa

There are 14 dreamers of Scripture:

Abimelech Gen 20 : 3,6
Jacob Gen 28:12; Gen 31 : 10-11
Laban 31 : 24
Joseph 37: 5 -10
The chief butler 40: 9 – 15
The chief baker 40 : 16 – 23
Pharaoh 41 : 1 – 32
A Midianite Jud 7 : 13 -15
Nebuchadnezzar Dan 2 and 4
Daniel Dan 2 and 7
Joseph Mt 1 : 20; 2 : 13 – 22
The wise men Mt 2 : 12
Pilates's wife Mt 27 : 19

There are 21 Men who had visions from God

Abraham Gen 15 : 1
Jacob Gen 46 : 2
Balaam Num 24 : 4,16
Samuel 1 Sam 3 : 1 , 15
Nathan 2 Sam 7 : 17 1 Chr 17 : 15
Isaiah isa 1 : 1,; 2 Chr 32 : 32
Messiah Ps 89 : 19
Exekiel Ex 7 : 13; 8 : 1 – 27; 9 : 21 – 24
Nebuchadnezza Dan 2
Obadiayh Oba 1
Nahum Nah 1 :1
Habakkuk hab 2 : 2 – 3
Peter Mat 17 : 9 Reve ( :17
Zacharias Lk 1 : 22
Ananias Acts 9: 10 – 12
Cornelius Acts 10 : 3 , 17
Paul Acts 16 : 9 – 10;

Peace to you

Arcturus 

[Redbird]

That is awesome, Arcturus. I am going to print that list out and do some studying.

Thank you so much.

Lisa

[Deborah-Leigh]

Your enthusiasm to know HIM and seek HIM through His word really does bless me Lisa.

Happy digging for treasure!  HE is the treasure!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rk12201960]

Thanks for your insite . I have plenty to look into.  My thoughts were if God directs everything then is everything we are from God?  It was a gray area for me so I wanted other thoughts. As I keep learning it just shows me how much False religion has implanted wrong thoughts or understanding in my search for God.

I thank all of you for your insite and will consider the scriptures.
Thanks so much.
Randy

[gmik]

That is awesome, Arcturus. I am going to print that list out and do some studying.

Thank you so much.

Lisa

Yes, thanks and me too.

[iris]

Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for the list of dreamers and those who had visions.
I'm going to copy it also and do a little studying.
It will be great to have them all together to use as a quick reference, later on. 

Iris

[Deborah-Leigh]

Iris

I had no idea that that little list would bless you all so much!

It is a comforting, humbling encouragement for me to experience and to see the love for the sfcriptures, His Word,  that you all show.

Thank you my brothers and sisters.

It is His wonderous blessing and our amaizing privilage to experience  love for HIM, binding us together in like minded unity of fellowship! ALL thanks, honour and praise to HIM!

Peace to you

~Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Here is another snippet I found ....

The book of Isaiah is man's title for this work. The Divine title....is The VISION of Isaiah!

Vision in Hebrew is chazon 2377 from 2372 a sight mentally ie a dream, revelation or oracle – vision (Strongs complete word study concordance)

There are many scriptures where this meaning is found. I found out that a vision can also be false. Compare the same word chazon is used in these scriptures.

Isa 29 : 7...true vision

Jer 14 : 14...false vision

The Hebrew machazeh 4236 from 2372 is used only four times in the OT meaning to see. False prophets saw a false vision.

Ezekiel 13 : 7 Have you not seen a false vision and have you not spoken a lying divination when YOU say, The Lord says, although I have not spoken?

The entire chapter 13 Ezekiel is a wonderful read. God is Sovereign. God will reveal to mankind foolishly believing in himself and leaning upon his own understanding, pride and arrogance that only GOD IS SOVERIGN and Man is NOT.

I have often come across charismatic blind self righteous Babylonians who have said...THE LORD TOLD ME....and then follows the biggest lot of hogwash. Fortunately I no longer have the unpleasant experience of having to have my ears trained in attentiveness to such mouths. I have been repented by God's grace and goodness and pardoned for my error and guilt in putting my faith in SELF appointed spokesmen of God. God told ME ME ME....false prophets and....blind guides whose bells and chimes ring out their Church calls that God will tear down and make known that HE is the LORD. Woe is to Mystery Babylon and her leaders.........out of whom we have been called and dragged to "Come out!"  I was called and did not listen. I had to be dragged out Lord forgive me and...praise and thanks to GOD who is dragging us to HIS SON! What a process! HIS process of transforming US. What a humbling privilege of HIS Grace towards us in unmerited blessing and mercy.

The Hebrew 4758 mar'eh also appears in the concordance under the word vision. This word derives from 7200 from a verb meaning to see with physical eyes. This word only appears in the OT

2 Cor 3 : 18 And all of us, as with unveiled face, because we continued to behold in the Word of God, as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image, in ever increasing splendour and from one degree of glory to another; for THIS COMES FROM THE LORD Who is The Spirit.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Iris

I had no idea that that little list would bless you all so much!

It is a comforting, humbling encouragement for me to experience and to see the love for the sfcriptures, His Word,  that you all show.

Thank you my brothers and sisters.

It is His wonderous blessing and our amaizing privilage to experience  love for HIM, binding us together in like minded unity of fellowship! ALL thanks, honour and praise to HIM!

Peace to you

~Arcturus

Thank you to my Sister,

It is true, God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit

His Spirit is like a light in a dark night:

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

As you say, it is all Him

God has given us so much, and daily he provides even more for those who are seeking through the love and fellowship of brothers and sisters of this Bible Truth forum.

Thank you Arcturus for such an uplifting post.

With Love from you brother in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

I have been looking at the Trinity myth that is exposed by Ray Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
[A Scriptural Refutation of the Trinity Theory] and came across this excerpt that I think fits in here. I quote....


Consequently, then, no longer are you strangers and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's FAMILY..." (Eph. 2:19).

.......... a closed triangle where no one gets in. That is what Satan would like people to believe. But, dear reader, God desires a very large family wherein you and I are family members! When were you taught such a marvelous truth in Sunday school? Ultimately, everyone in the entirety of the Universe is going to be one, holy, united, happy, glorious, giant, FAMILY OF GOD!!!

"...that God may be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).


Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Amen Arcturus, Amen! 

So "...that God may be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).

Brotherly Love in Christ,
Darren

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

<ducks in and sees the conversation and smiles>

  Behold how Good and how pleasant it is,
  for brothers to be together
  Behold how Good and how pleasant is it,
  For brothers to be together.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

[DWIGHT]

Amen, Anne, Arcturus and Darren,

Susan wrote a few days ago....this is what I live for, this is my piece of heaven on earth....  There is nothing like the unity of the body of Christ.    We started with dreams and visions and wound up with the unity of the body.....isn't that just like our Lord Jesus?  Praise His holy Name!!!

In Him,

Dwight