The supposed "secret" rapture...

[skydreamers]

Hi All, I have a brother who insists that there is a "secret rapture".  I'm trying to study this out because I admit I don't know much about it.  I know there are a lot of differing views and it's confusing.  I haven't seen any convincing scripture to "prove" there is such a thing as a "secret rapture".  I've read Ray's paper which I think is really good and explains a lot.  However, I still have a question which may have a simple answer to it. 

Why are the saints referred to as coming WITH Jesus at the second coming in these texts:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NKJV
13  so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 NKJV
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jude 1:14-15 NKJV
14  Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes WITH ten thousands of His saints,
15  to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
   

My brother insists that these are the saints who were previously "raptured" before the great tribulation, and are now arriving with Jesus at the second coming.  I know there has got to be an explanation for this.  Has anyone else wondered about these texts?  How would you explain these? 

Thanks and peace to all,

Diana

[Alan]

Diana,

The second verse you quote answers the first.

The saints are God's elect and they will be resurrected when Christ returns.
Most of Orthodox church believes that there will be a physical resurrection
and all of these fleshy dead bodies with come up out of the ground and meet
Him in the air.

Those who sleep in Jesus are given new spiritual bodies. The dead shall rise first, then
those those who are alive.

The last verse  you quote in Jude is talking about judgment. This is the great white throne
judgment.....the second resurrection.  These ten thousands are the elect who will judge the unrighteous.
The elect (saints) are the Lake of Fire.

Hope this helps!

Alan

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Alan

You observed : Most of Orthodox church believes that there will be a physical resurrection
and all of these fleshy dead bodies with come up out of the ground and meet
Him in the air.

That is so true because the Church translates spiritual into literal or carnal interpretation. Jesus said : The words I speak are spirit!  

You say : The elect (saints) are the Lake of Fire.

I believe that some of Ray's e-mail detractors are getting a feel for judgment now. Can you imagine tens of thousands of Ray Smiths?    

God Bless him!

I enjoyed how you put together you response so neatly and effectively.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[rick]

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Many preachers will use this passage in Matthew to prove their secret rapture theory but a little common sense will show us how deceptive they can be. if the return of Jesus will be as it was in the days of Noah, my question is this. who was taken and who was left? were not the ungodly the ones taken away in death? and the grace of God left Noah and his family to repopulate the earth. if we look at the same account in Luke, I think it only confirms this......

Luk 17:34  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35  Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37  And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

the disciples plainly ask Jesus where these people are taken and his reply? where ever the body (carcass) is,there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered. the rapture theory is bogus and the world of chritendom is waiting on a lie

[dogcombat]

Diana,

Ray has covered this subject on the homepage

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

Ches

[Kat]

Hi Diana,

Why are the saints referred to as coming WITH Jesus at the second coming in these texts:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NKJV
13  so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 NKJV
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jude 1:14-15 NKJV
14  Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes WITH ten thousands of His saints,
15  to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

At Christ's appearing, when He returns, He will then resurrected the  elect/saints.  First those that are dead will be resurrected, then those still living will be changed.  This is the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6)

1Co 15:51  Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
v. 52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

When Christ returns, all the elect/saints shall immediately go to meet Him in the air, before He comes to the earth.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an Archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17  Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

First the elect meet Christ in the air. I believe this will be the wedding supper when the elect are joined with Christ in the kingdom.

Rev 19:6  And I heard as the sound of a great multitude, and as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!
v. 7  Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
v. 8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
v. 9  And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God.

That is who is returning with Christ, in the scriptures your brother used, those in the first resurrection. The elect, the chosen few, those that remain faithful.

Rev 17:14  They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with Him are called and chosen and faithful."

I hope this will help  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Why are the saints referred to as coming WITH Jesus at the second coming in these texts:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 NKJV
13  so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 NKJV
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring WITH Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jude 1:14-15 NKJV
14  Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes WITH ten thousands of His saints,
15  to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

The Saints are there to meet & greet the Lord much as one would go outside their door to greet and meet an honored or welcomed guest as they approached our house or place of our gathering. You would go forth to extend a welcome as you returned to the place of the meeting or gathering with the honored guest.

Here is an explaination from the article Ches (Dogcombat) referenced;


OUR LORD DOES NOT RETURN TO HIS SAINTS BY HIMSELF ALONE

In Matthew 24:31 the Lord's return is in the company of angels even as His ascension from the Mount of Olives 50 days after the resurrection was in the presence of "two men in white apparel" (Acts 1:10). Yet Paul describes the Lord's descent in I Thessalonians 4:16 as being "the Lord Himself." It was not necessary to add the pronoun, "Himself," unless the apostle wanted to point out a further unique feature of this event. There is indeed "the voice of the archangel," but it is the Lord Himself Who descends with that voice.

ANSWER: Are we to believe that the archangel followed Christ from heaven to earth, made a quick cameo appearance by giving a shout, and then went back to heaven?

What about this argument. When God inspires the pronoun "Himself" to be used in Scripture does it prove that that one person only can be present?

Even in our own everyday vernacular this statement is not accurate. Suppose I made the following statement: "Did you know that the White house is going to be represented at our convention?" To which someone might reply: "Oh, the White House is going to send a representative?" To which I would reply: "No. President Bush himself is coming." Now as you all know, the President of the greatest nation on earth, NEVER travels alone. Did we think that Jesus Christ would return by "Himself," alone? Our Lord is not sending messengers to "represent" Him at this awesome and auspicious occasion (although angels will be present). No, our Lord "HIMSELF" is coming!

Let us see if the Scriptures "themselves" (pun intended) prove that the pronoun "Himself" does not necessarily mean "by Himself, alone."

"Now at their speaking these things, Jesus Himself stood in THEIR midst and is saying to THEM, Peace to you!" Jesus stood by Himself ... in a GROUP!

"And I hear a loud voice out of the throne saying, 'Lo! The tabernacle of God is with MANKIND, and He shall be tabernacling with THEM, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with THEM."

It is God's plan and purpose to bring many sons into His family. When new Jerusalem descends out of heaven, it is stated that God will dwell with them on the earth. Did we think that God will be dwelling in New Jerusalem all by Himself, alone? That would, of course, defeat His very purpose of "dwelling with them."

So let it be clear to all that in I Thes. 4:16 where it is said that "... the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven ..." it certainly does not prove or mean that He comes "alone," especially in the light of the above Scriptures which prove that Christ or God are present "themselves" in the company of many or even multitudes.

(19) Furthermore, there is a significant distinction in the location of this assembling. It is in the air (4:17) while the assembling described in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 14 is on the Mount of Olives.

ANSWER: These arguments are a grasping for straws. They have no validity at all. Actually, Zechariah 14 does not say that the Lord gathers His saints on, or while standing on, the Mount of Olives. Here is what it does say regarding the gathering of His saints:

"And the Lord my God shall come, And all the saints WITH Him" (Zech. 14:7).

Clearly it is when He "shall come," (not after He came), that they are gathered "with Him."

Revelation 14 does not mention the Mount of Olives, but rather mount Zion, where the 144,000 are with Christ, but it doesn't say that this is the very spot on which they were gathered initially.

Matt. 24 definitely includes the Jewish saints in that assembling and the actual gathering does not take place on the Mount of Olives. If by the "air" it is speaking of the literal air in our atmosphere (rather than to the jurisdiction of power said to be in the air in Eph. 2:2, which is more likely), then there are at least three proofs that this meeting in Matt. 24 takes place in the same "air" as I Thes. 4. Read Matt. 24:31 carefully:

"And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four WINDS ..." (Mat. 24:31). Webster's wind, moving AIR! (Emphasis mine).

"... and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with Power and much glory" (Mat. 24:30). Clouds are only found "in the air." Even fog is still "in the air." No clouds rise righter than "the air."

Although it doesn't actually say that Christ came from outer space to then be located on the clouds of heaven, many, nonetheless, assume such a thing. Regardless, wind is in heaven, clouds are in heaven, and air is in heaven. To come from any of them requires being "in the air." And as all astronauts know it is not possible to return to earth without going through "the air." There may be "holes" in the ozone, but there are no holes "in the air."

From the tape: "When the Lord descends ... it doesn't ever say that He returns to the earth, but just descends from heaven, and the meeting you notice is in the air."

ANSWER: True, it doesn't say. Even the author of Consolation in Expectation, p. 24 concedes: "There is something here which suggests that we go up and not down ... that our abode is the heaven, and not earth ... but it is only intimated, NOT REVEALED."

I know of no Scripture that states that Christ will set up His Kingdom and rule it from heaven. So it doesn't say He returns to heaven; it doesn't say He returns to earth; it doesn't say He stays in the air either. We know from other Scriptures and prophesies that Christ does indeed return and rule on this earth. However, for the sake of the rapturists, can we know from this very Scripture alone whether Christ immediately returns with His saints to earth or does He return to heaven first for a number of years?

We can learn something remarkable from the way that God uses the word "meet" in this Scripture.

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thes. 4:17).

In this verse as in three others, God uses the Greek word apatesis which is translated "to meet." It is distinguished from a half dozen other Greek words which are variously translated, "meet,' "meet with," "meeting," "meeting with," etc. The Greek word apatesis, is, however, used only three other times.

One authority tells us that this word apatesis was used in ancient times to describe the actions of an official welcoming delegation that had been sent "to meet" a visiting dignitary.

It is said that the word literally meant, "meeting and returning with." Not being an etymologist, historian, or scholar, I can't speak with any authority here, but I can use a concordance and I can read the Scriptures. Let's look at these three occasions and see if, indeed, this word carries the connotation of "meeting and returning with."

"Now in the middle of the night a clamor occurs: Lo! The bridegroom! Come out to meet [apatesis] Him!" (Matt. 25:6).

Comment: After they went out to meet the bridegroom, they didn't stay outside, but rather they came back inside with the Bridegroom. Remember, it is "midnight" and it is dark--that's why they took oil for their torches. They went out to meet the Bridegroom, then returned with Him to the house, and locked the door.

When Christ began His entrance into Jerusalem (which was itself a type of His triumphant return to Jerusalem), many people went out with palm fronds to meet Him.

"On the morrow the vast throng, who are coming for the festival, hearing that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, got fronds of palms and came out to meet [apatesis] Him" (John 12:13).

Needless to say, they did not return with Christ back to Bethany, but returned back into Jerusalem with Christ.

When the saints in Rome heard of Paul's soon arrival, they went out to meet him.

"And thence the brethren, hearing about us, come to meet [apatesis] us as far as Appii Forum and Three Taverrns, perceiving whom, Paul, thanking God, took courage. Now when we entered Rome" (Acts 28:15-16).

And again, it is seen that they returned back to Rome with Paul, they did not return with Paul back to Puteoli.

The fourth time this Greek word apatesis is translated "to meet" is in I Thes. 4:17: "... we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet [apatesis] the Lord in the air."

Now I am almost sure that I can hear faint protests in the distance from objecting rapturists. Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That's right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!

[skydreamers]

Wow, thanks everyone for all your replies, they have been a tremendous help.  Each reply made it clearer and clearer. 

Joe, you know I read Ray's paper on the Rapture but the section you included I completely don't remember!  How weird is that!  Too many late nights of reading I guess.  Although I often reread Ray's papers and find things I missed before.  (I hope that's not age!)  Anyways, that's why this forum is such a blessing.  Thanks for all your help everyone.

God bless, Diana

[iris]

If Christ is in us, then couldn't you say that
he's already come to each one of us? 


Iris

[Kat]

Hi iris,

If Christ is in us, then couldn't you say that
he's already come to each one of us? 

I think this email should answer your question.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2619.msg19746#msg19746 ------------

Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[iris]

Thanks Kat, that helped a lot.



Iris

[Kirk]

Tell your brother "The righteous shall never be removed from the earth...."

Proverbs.10.30

[hillsbororiver]

Wow, thanks everyone for all your replies, they have been a tremendous help.  Each reply made it clearer and clearer. 

Joe, you know I read Ray's paper on the Rapture but the section you included I completely don't remember!  How weird is that!  Too many late nights of reading I guess.  Although I often reread Ray's papers and find things I missed before.  (I hope that's not age!)  Anyways, that's why this forum is such a blessing.  Thanks for all your help everyone.

God bless, Diana

Hi Diana,

I am constantly learning new things when I reread Ray's articles, the papers on Bible Truths are like a huge treasure chest but I can only pull out a small briefcase full of precious gems at a time. I need to keep going back and reloading.

You are so right the brethren here can so often direct us and point us in the right direction in our search for understanding.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[snorky]

More defintive proof: John 17:15 and 20...Christ Himself said there will be NO RAPTURE! No disciples, and no believers thereafter, will be removed from the earth but protected from the evil one. For the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone reading the Gospels misses this!...Oh, yeah, I do...God hides the meaning from them! Further, my own husband believes in the rapture. He doesn't get John 17:15 and 20 at all or other verses mentioned above about removal. But that's because he's too busy to read and study the Bible and gets his doctrine from folks like Hagee, Osteen, and the rest. Remember, unless your loved one actively (and is called and chosen to) seek the truth and love the truth, God will send "strong delusion" (2 Thess. 8-11) and will kepp it there until they do and "come out of her my people". It is up to God to reveal the truth, not you, and you have to depend on God.--deb aka snorky

[josh]

Kirk,

what translation are you quoting from?

[iris]

Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed;
but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. KJV

This is the scripture that Kirk was quoting.


Iris

[jennie]

As ignorant as I am sure I sound about this topic... I don't know how it is going to happen and I don't think about it too much. I figure God knows the plan and it will all be according to His plan. I trust him with my heart, mind and soul and spirit and don't worry about it. God's got it. Jennie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Medias Res

Your question caused me to look up the scripture and I found this from the Amplified Version

Prov 10 : 30 The consistently righteous shall never be removed, but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Perhaps this means the wicked will be cast out into the outer darkness after Jesus returns.

Just a thought....don't know what translation Kirk quoted from though. Am also waiting to see.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[josh]

Arcturus,

For a second there I forgot I had asked =)

I looked up 10-15 translations of this verse this morning but could not find the one Kirk quoted from... the amplified was the closest as it seems to allude to concept...

Thanks for the response.

Josh

[Deborah-Leigh]

Perhaps it was his own translation    

Josh you say you looked up 10-15 translations....do you have a particular library reference or internet site for comparison. I use e-sword but would enjoy access to more translations!

Can you suggest anything to help out here perhaps?

peace to you

Arcturus