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Author Topic: Out of Context?  (Read 4655 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Out of Context?
« on: March 04, 2007, 01:17:36 PM »

Psa 116:13  I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Zep 3:9  For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth; even in him:
 
1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Rev 15:4  Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

 
His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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Scribbles

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 01:45:26 PM »

Hi Joe,
Maybe I'm pretty "dense".....or maybe I haven't fully woke up yet, but why is the title "out of context?"

peace,
Scribbles
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2007, 01:57:35 PM »

Hi Joe,
Maybe I'm pretty "dense".....or maybe I haven't fully woke up yet, but why is the title "out of context?"

peace,
Scribbles


Hi Scribbles,

I believe what Joe is saying here is, how is this out of context, basically, that all will be saved? Because they seem to fit so well one with the other. Am I correct Joe on this?

Peace,
Sorin


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hillsbororiver

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 01:58:45 PM »

Hi Scribbles,

I gave it that rather cryptic title contemplating the answers that many Pastors or church leaders might give in regard to the above scriptures.

It seems apparent that all, everyone will come to worship the name and the Person that is Jesus, all (everyone) who call on His name will be saved. Unless of course this is totally taken "out of context."  ;)

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe    
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 02:00:29 PM »

Hi Joe,
Maybe I'm pretty "dense".....or maybe I haven't fully woke up yet, but why is the title "out of context?"

peace,
Scribbles


Hi Scribbles,

I believe what Joe is saying here is, how is this out of context, basically, that all will be saved? Because they seem to fit so well one with the other. Am I correct Joe on this?

Peace,
Sorin




BINGO!  ;D

You nailed it Brother! (It looks like we were posting at the same time)

Good show Sorin.

Peace Brethren,

Joe
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 11:01:47 AM »

I used to wear a button (proudly), that " I am a Whosoever!".

The who so evers are the ones that say the 5 second sinners prayers.  Christendom does not believe that is ALL people.

Good scriptures in one spot Joe.  I am printing them out to memorize so maybe, just maybe, I can coherently talk about this to people.
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 01:36:17 PM »

Thanks Gena, here is a portion from Lake of Fire Part VI;

 http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:-0oQskztZVwJ:bible-truths.com/lake6.html+l+ray+smith+context&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us


(THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY BELIEVERS)

A little digression: For the past couple of weeks I have been wasting my time exchanging emails with a man who took great exception to my treatment of I Tim. 2:4 in Part V of this series on the lake of fire. He concluded that I have not a lick of knowledge concerning proper interpretation, homiletics, hermeneutics, or exegesis. He proceeded to explain to me the king of all theological seminary theories on interpretation, which is "context, context, context" (sort of like the real estate theory of property value: "location, location, location"). He pointed out that the "context" of "all men" found in I Tim. 2:4 is found in I Tim. 2:1-2,

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For kings, and for ALL that are in authority…"

He informed me that in my ignorance I failed to see that the "all men" that God wills to be saved in verse 4 is speaking of kings and those in authority of verse 2 ONLY! Oh really?

I asked him if the "all men" of verses 4 and 5 also pertained ONLY to the "context" of verse 2. Let’s read it:

"For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men [all mankind], the man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for ALL [mankind], to be testified in DUE time" (I Tim. 2:5-6).

I asked him if Jesus Christ gave Himself a ransom for "all kings and all in authority" ONLY (in keeping with his theory of "context, context, context")? I never heard from him again.

"Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made STUPID…" (Rom. 1:22, Concordant New Testament).

Let me kindly point out that the "kings and authorities" of verse 2 are only two categories of the "all men" in verse 1. Do we really think that what Paul was actually meaning to say is this: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all kings and for all that are in authority, ONLY?" NO! The supplications, intercessions and giving of thanks were to be made "for ALL men." Paul then gives us two categories of men out of "all men" that should be included. Namely kings and those in authority, because these have the power and authority to make our lives miserable if they become our enemies, and Paul desired that the saints live a "quiet and peaceable life" as much as is possible in this wicked world.

I was kind of sad that my detractor did not answer back my last email to him, because I was holding I Tim. 4:10 in store for my next rebuttal to his inane arguments. Now this truly is a remarkable Scripture. I have had many traitors of the truth tell me that when God speaks of "all" being saved it always means "all saints" or "all in the context" or "all in Christ" or some other "all," just as long as it can never ever mean "all of mankind." But don’t you just know that it is God’s way to shut the mouths of deceivers. Let’s look at I Tim. 4:9-10 in any context you wish:

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

Now had God left off that last phrase, "specially of those that believe," then maybe our detractors could once again say that, "Well, yes, God ‘is the saviour of all men,’ it’s just that He doesn’t actually save all men." Let me now show you how my Pennsylvania farm boy mind works when it comes to a Scripture like this one. God has so tightly book-ended this verse that it is absolutely impossible for even the most devious minds of detractors and traitors of the truth to misrepresent this verse with an ounce of intelligence. This verse is IRON CLAD!

Notice that this verse does not say: "God is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially ALL MEN," does it? No. And this verse does not say: "God is the Saviour of ALL THAT BELIEVE, specially ALL THAT BELIEVE," does it? No. The "specially of those that believe," BELIEVE. The rest of the "all men" do NOT BELIEVE. These are two different groups—(1)Believers and (2)NON-believers. Since the "believers" are "specially" saved, in relation to the saving of the "all men non-believers," then they will be saved also. See it doesn’t say that God is the Saviour of all men but will ONLY save believers. No, the "all men" ARE SAVED and the "believers" are SPECIALLY SAVED—BOTH will be saved! The word "specially" does not mean "exclusively."

The word "specially" is translated from the Greek word malista, which means "in the greatest degree or particularly" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 155). It is translated "specially," "especially," "chiefly" and "most of all." In every single usage of this word in the New Testament it is used in relation to others who are not excluded, but included in the same subject. Let us notice a few of these so that we can be absolutely convinced in our own minds that the "specially believers" can in no possible way exclude the "all men" of the same verse.

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, SPECIALLY [Gk: malista] they of the circumcision" (Titus 1:10).

Is it even necessary that I point out that this verse does not in any way insinuate that the "unruly and vain talkers and deceivers" are ALL from the circumcision ONLY?

"Not now as a servant but above a servant, a brother beloved, SPECIALLY to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?" (Philemon 16).

This verse says for sure that Onesimus was "special" to more than just Paul. And so it is with every single use of this Greek work in the New Testament.

It is absolutely clear and irrefutable that the believers of I Tim. 4:10 are saved in a special way, that is, they are saved before the rest of humanity, and they are given the gift of eonian (age-abiding) life reigning with Christ in the Kingdom of God, ages before the rest of humanity are saved. Only those called and chosen NOW will EVER reign and rule and bring salvation to the rest of the world and to the universe—THIS is a special gift of God to believers being called in this age ONLY. But … BUT, the rest of humanity WILL ALSO BE SAVED (albeit by way of the lake of fire in the great white throne judgment).

And so it is that long before the rest of humanity is purged through the lake of fire, believers must also be purged through FIRE. It is so sad that these things are not taught in Sunday school or church. Salvation is by grace through faith. But if we isolate these two words "grace" and "faith" from all the thousands of Scriptures that show us how grace and faith operate in the real world, then we will fail to see or understand the most fundamental of New Testament teachings. GAL, 2;20.

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Sorin

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2007, 01:42:18 PM »

Why is eternal torture of unspeakable amounts of evil and depraved satanic pain and suffering the only accetable punishment for Christians?
Why do they want an eternal torture for temporal sins? What if your mom or teenage daughter was in hell while your in heaven, would that really be heaven knowing [and perhaps even seeing] that they're literally being barbequed alive screaming at the top of their lungs in vain and you are enjoying a nice glass of banana daquiri [or whatever]
and thinking to yourself, Ahhh, it's so nice up here?

I've seen an episode of The Simpsons where Homer ended up in heaven [ how did that happen, homer of all people? lol] and he was watching on a plasma tv Armageddon down on earth and his wife an kids were running around in flames, it was quite humorous 'cause it's a cartoon, but I thought it was a good mock on Christianity.

Don't mind me, I'm just rambling..........



Edit: I found the clip: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3744.0.html     

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 01:57:51 PM by Sorin »
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longhorn

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2007, 02:14:34 PM »

Great Post Joe.. 1 Tim 4:10 ties directly in with the " Alter Call "   

Longhorn
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2007, 06:47:41 PM »

Thank you Longhorn,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 12:42:08 PM »

Hi rj,

I wonder what is really going on in the minds of those who will reject plain scripture in order to maintain man made doctrine, I know their eyes have been blinded but what are they thinking deep down. I know that when the Lord had me in virtually total darkness I was very aware of some of the sinful things I was doing and was usually quite capable of justifying almost everything in my mind.



I remembered this from Romans's Chapter 8 when I was reading Ray's explaination of "specially those who believe."
(1Tim 4:10)

Romans 8 (New King James Version)

 From Suffering to Glory
   
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.



What an incredible promise to contemplate and experience.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe


2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 12:46:42 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Kat

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 02:33:00 PM »


Hi Joe,

I think that all those preachers don't have a clue what the Bible says, so they depend on what they learn in seminary schools.  And regardless of what the scripture say they teach what they learned in school.  They have a whole network of support for what they teach, so they feel justified. 
They hate people that stand up against them, because they threaten their whole church system and their way of life, which more times than not is pretty lavish.

Mar 7:6  And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7  in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8  You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9  And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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snorky

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 05:39:52 PM »

AMEN, Kat!

In fact  before I stopped going to the little country church I was in and cleaned I learned that the pastor in fact "recycles" old sermons! He's got folders of old sermons and told me he goes through them sometimes and picks out used sermons he figures would rouse the congregation or fit into a particular event (Memorial Day, Veterans Day, Fourth of July etc.) Fact is, he preaches, he admits, the way he learned to preach at the seminary.

So basically what he is saying is that he is NOT LED BY GOD to do what he does, but by man. I've popped in a time or two since I've left the church and guess what?  He's still using the same ol' sermons. It's funny but he actually gets it right lots of times, but, just when you think he's turning the corner, he comes up with something false like "human free will choice to accept Christ or not."

And thanks, Joe, for the list you provided, especially Ephesians, which is a piece I've been looking for to show that there is more than one time for reconciliation/dispendation and backing for 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Deb aka snorky
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2007, 07:26:55 PM »


Hi Joe,

I think that all those preachers don't have a clue what the Bible says, so they depend on what they learn in seminary schools.  And regardless of what the scripture say they teach what they learned in school.  They have a whole network of support for what they teach, so they feel justified. 
They hate people that stand up against them, because they threaten their whole church system and their way of life, which more times than not is pretty lavish.

Mar 7:6  And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7  in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8  You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9  And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Thank you Kat, (Deb aka snorky, You are very welcome!)

I can understand these folks defending or being loyal to these man made doctrines not only because of a certain comfort level (lukewarm, neither cold nor hot) but also from a sense of superiority they do not want to relinquish as well as it being the source (they believe) of their bread and butter, not only the clergy but the networking within the (church) system.




Rev 3:15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 
Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
 
Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

P.S. I still would like to be able to actually read the minds of some of the leadership as scriptural witnesses are presented, there must be a spike in their brainwaves as His Word clashes with their idols of the heart.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 07:35:29 PM by hillsbororiver »
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snorky

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2007, 02:59:02 AM »

Amazing, Joe! Tonight I saw (just for the heck of it) John Hagee, being his usual false profit self, and he really outdid himself this time! He was going over the church of Sardis in Revelation and came to this part about how one can tell if one is a pharisee. He must have made a list of his own attributes! anyway, the second way one can spot a pharisee is that a pharisee "insists that the only authority is the Word of God and that no man has any authority over him" !!! Hagee then went on to say that church elders (such as himself of course) have authority over their congregations, and, of course, God gave them that authority!

Well, I reckon that makes Christ a Pharisee! I guess when Christ told Satan "no man lives by bread alone but by every word of God" (Matt. 4:4) He forgot to consult with Mr. Dual Covenant! A pharisee also tries to set people on the course of Bible truth. I guess that makes Ray a pharisee (in fact when he said that I felt he was aiming specifically at Ray!) and the rest of us as well! In fact, it seems to me that Hagee, who is doing God's Will here, is telling people some very dangerous stuff lately.

Deb aka snorky
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Jennie

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2007, 09:20:12 PM »

Salvation is available for all. It sounds like a choice must be made in that "whoever will call on the name of the Lord". I don't mean a little "sinner's prayer" but a heartfelt calling out to the Lord. Am I missing something?
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2007, 10:26:16 PM »

Excellent points here brothers and sisters!!!

Joe and all,
I agree with your PS statement here in this thread; as I too would like to see how these self assured pharasees would react to the truth when given the witnessing scriptures !  How do you see the 'white throne judgement' taking place...I mean, I wonder if everyone will actually see everyone else being judged for all of the wrongs that they had done while in their lives while on earth?

Longhorn, it's good to hear from you again.
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YellowStone

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Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 12:51:34 AM »

Salvation is available for all. It sounds like a choice must be made in that "whoever will call on the name of the Lord". I don't mean a little "sinner's prayer" but a heartfelt calling out to the Lord. Am I missing something?

Great point Jennie, but perhaps the calling is more from the heart than the mouth. Words are often cheap and many time contradict the feelings of the heart. It is true that no one can truly have their heart and mind opened to God until God drags them to him, but likewise, it is not until we break down with a heart  felt calling (Spoken or felt) that we begin to feel him comfort us.

Yes God allows us to see and feel him, but we still have to walk that twisted, windy, rocky road ourselves. If we stumble, we must pick ourselves up, if we fall and break an ankle, we must not focus on the pain but rather on the wonderous view that surrounds us; the view that is a promise of what is to come.

God will help us, but will not do it for us. :) Many blame their falling away on God; saying that: "God failed me!", when in fact "they failed God." They same way the fail him when the recite the sinners prayer, while thinking of the football game that starts in half an hour.

I don't think you are missing anything! :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Out of Context?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 01:46:13 AM »


Hi Jennie,

Quote
Salvation is available for all. It sounds like a choice must be made in that "whoever will call on the name of the Lord". I don't mean a little "sinner's prayer" but a heartfelt calling out to the Lord. Am I missing something?

Most are not given there chance for salvation now, but in judgment in the Lake of Fire.  Now only a few are chosen;  Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate... "
And none of it is our doing, it is all brought about by God.
Here is an email of Ray's that explains this.

http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#saved -------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chester:

Thank you for your email and questions.

Now I realize that this is not quite the message of the Christian party line, but it is Scriptural. The idea that one must COME TO CHRIST, and then CHOOSE CHRIST, on his own by his own "free" will, it not only UNscriptural, it is ANTI-scriptural. Here is how God saves people:

I will quote this from the Concordant Literal New Testament, as it is a better translation than the KJV in these verses: 

"Now we are aware that GOD [the word 'God' is left OUT in the KJV, but it is IN the Greek manuscripts] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God [but just how does one come to 'love God?' continue...] who ARE CALLED [by GOD, not by our so-called 'free' will], according to the purpose [God's purpose in calling us] that, whom He foreknew [God knew before you were born whether He could be calling you now, or later] He designates BEFOREHAND also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates BEFOREHAND, these HE calls also, and whom HE calls, these HE justifies also; now whom HE justifies, these HE glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30).

Now then, can we not see that it is "HE"--GOD, Who does all these things? NOWHERE do we see here that man must first choose Christ of his own free will, THEN God will do all these other things.

NO! GOD, has a purpose, GOD does the calling, GOD conforms and transforms us into the image of His Son, GOD justifies us, and GOD will glorify us also. IT IS ALL GOD!

But when God does do these things for those He calls, He also GIVES THEM FAITH TO BELIEVE THESE THINGS. So then here is the formula, if I may use that word, for HOW God saves us:

"For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that [that saving faith] not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD." (Eph. 2:8).

You said that I don't cover salvation in any of my papers. Actually I do at numerous places, perhaps you missed it. Notice that we are "saved by GRACE."

In Part IV of the "lake of fire" series I show EXACTLY how God uses "Grace" to train, educate, discipline, school, judge, and chastise us into the image of His Son. Are you reading and studying the "lake of fire series?"

Once God calls you, He will guide you in ALL THINGS that you need to know and do.

God be with you,

Ray
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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