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Preordained
Sorin:
From the email section:
"Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
Lee
Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli? But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray"
-----------------------------------------
Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will, and God doesn't control everything, He just has a foreknowledge of the future. If God doesn't preordain certain sins, then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass?
I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will, yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing. ???
I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no? or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? But who has withstood His intention?
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. {Did Pharaoh do some pretty bad things, yes, who has raised him up? ]
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth [{like little girl rapists hearts}.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will {Should be intention, but still, who has resisted it}?
So yes, I'm pretty confused,
Sorin
sansmile:
Hi sorin,
But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?
Do you see what i mean??
God Bless Sandie
Sorin:
--- Quote from: sansmile on March 13, 2007, 10:41:06 AM ---Hi sorin,
But by having foreknowledge He KNOWS what choices we will make?
So He knows already what my choices (that He puts in front of me) wil be, wether good or bad?
Do you see what i mean??
God Bless Sandie
--- End quote ---
Hi Sandie, yes I realize that. So now that begs the question, how does God know what we will do in the future, if He doesn't cause us to, or our sins are not preordained? I have a theory about that, we have a freewill, and God is outside of time, and can see into the future, because He is everywhere, past, present and future.
If we don't have free will, then we are caused to do things, everything we do has a causation, and that would include raping little girls. So then, how is it not preordained? How does the causation come about? Randomly? Then wouldn't it be fair to say that Randomness is working all things after the counsel of it's own will?
See, like I said, confusing.
Sorin
Kat:
Hi Sorin,
I looked through Ray's email on free will and could not find one that addresses your question exactly. But I found these that I think together pretty much cover your question.
Because of there length I brought just the link to them.
http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#why
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=253.msg2134#msg2134
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Craig:
Sorin,
Free will is the hardest thing to wrap our minds around that I have found.
God created us "sinning machines" and "made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope"
If God created us this way then how could we react any differently. Yes we have the ability to make choices, we do all the time, and we consider this "free will", but that is an illusion.
If we are created to respond to our own vain thoughts and actions we cannot help but follow through on those thoughts. God lays down the gauntlet of life for us to overcome, but we cannot ever hope to overcome them by our own will or attempts. When we realize what we are and cry out for God to lead us (remove our vain thoughts and reasoning) then we will make progress over our sins and actions. The only thing we have to look toward to, wtih the faith that God gives us, is "hope".
Ray has said many times that we should thank God that we were not created with the same makeup and upbringing as Hitler, a child moletster, etc. Because if we did we would respond the exact same way.
I am going to use the analogy of a computer (and no, I'm not saying we are God's "computers" or "puppets") A computer makes thousands of choices a minute, but those choices are all programmed by the programmer. If I want a computer to respond one way then I give it the input it needs to make the choice that I know it will. It can't make any other choice, (out of thousands of choices it makes to get to the end), it will always end up were I wanted it to. But a computer, unlike us, does not care why it chooses the way it does or feels good or bad over the choice. We do, when God shows me my sin, that doesn't keep me from still sinning, but when I do it pains me and makes me cry out to God to take the place of that sin in my life. And even if I don't, (and won't) overcome all the sin in my life I am given the hope of being perfected in Christ's image.
I believe the illusion of "free will" is so strong because many of us have will's that are also strong. I can will myself to not ever commit adultry, and I may be successful all my life, but if I see a beautiful female, inside there is the turmoil of the struggle with the sin and my thoughts. As long as that turmoil is there and my thoughts are of a carnal nature then as Christ alluded to, I am still guilty of adultry. When the turmoil and thoughts are no longer there at all, then I have truelly overcome that sin, but it was not of my doing, it was all of God in me.
Now, God creates us subject to vanity and sin, and when we live this life on an earth that is also created the same way, with a billion people all created the same it is no problem for God to know what our choice will be when the appropriate action is put before us.
So take me back in time 60-70 years and put me in charge of the nazi's. Would I respond the same as Hitler? No I wouldn't, but put me in his shoes, his life growing up and give me the same choices that he made to get to where he ended up and I/we would do the same as him.
Clear as mud? :) I'm sure for most my thoughts won't help at all, but it works for my feable brain, and even then I still struggle with these questions.
Blessings
Craig
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