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Preordained

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JJ:
Sorin,  I hope what Craig shared has helped untwist this hard concept. 

Craig,  thanks for sharing.  This really helped keep my head on the track of truth.

The understanding of these truths- no free-will-- God's sovereignty -  they
twist the mind to the point of pain, BUT  when it clicks, and we see that we
ARE capable of any beastly sin,  it is very freeing......   is this because the
Truth does set one free?

Very good example with adultry.  Some of us do have the strong-will power
(from the experience, training, background- and personality that God GAVE us)
to resist ACTING out this sin, but very few of us can be DEAD to the sin of
desire/thinking/considering....... in time, with age and exerience and the pain that
our sin causes, God motivates us to even resist the thinking part...... when will
that time come?   I want rid of my sin!!  I want rid of my pride!

Forgive me as I once again quote C.S. Lewis:

"The pleasure of pride is like the pleasure of scratching.  If there is an itch, one
does want to scratch; but it is nicer to have neither the itch nor the scratch.  As
long as we have the itch of self-regard we shall want the pleasure of self-approval,
but the happiest moments aer those when we forget our precious selves and have
neither but have everything else instead." 

self-regard or self-indulgence-- both selfish pleasures that are hard to shake.
and we as humans are loved by God, but not worthy of worship--- only the
One, True, Awesome, SinLESS, All-powerful, All-knowing, Totally loving and merciful
and just God of creation is worthy of worship and honor.   

when I think of His greatness and then realize my desire for self-regard and pleasure--
it  sickens me deeply-- to the point of begging God for release from my sin...... thus
the cycle begins, as Craig explained.

jayle

 

Deborah-Leigh:
hello Sorin

I have volunteered been caused to answer your post.  :D My comments and how I understand this vast and wonderous subject you have opened up, is  in red. As already mentioned, the subject of free will is not easy! I can see and appreciate your effort to understand! I hope you will be further encouraged to really get a grasp on this awesome truth!

Ray's answer sounds as if we have free will,.... Where? How? Free will by Ray’s definition is the ability to act INDEPENDENTLY of God. Ref LOF 15 B and God doesn't control everything,... Again, where? How? Ray says God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL. This is the theme of His teachings. He just has a foreknowledge of the future. God doesn’t JUST have a foreknowledge of the future. God is not only omniscient He is also omnipotent. He is ALL knowing and ALL powerful. That is what makes Him God.   If God doesn't preordain certain sins,... God does not pre-ordain certain sins. There is no if about this. God does not authorise, or agree with or approve of sin. then isn't it possible to do or not do certain sins No it is not possible to do or not to do certain sins. We have no choice. God knows we will sin. He knows that we sin automatically. He knows which sin we will perform before we perform it. Mk 14:30 ...before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice..God knows us better than we know ourselves! which are supposedly in His foreknowledge, in which case God would be mistaken? Ray teaches that God has never made a mistake, changed His mind, been surprised by anything, knows everything that will happen before it happens because God is Sovereign. Ref Praying by God’s rules.   He thought we were going to do it, but we didn't, 'cause it's not preordained, therefore doesn't have to come to pass? Here is what you are saying and it is correct: God THOUGHT we were going to do it, but God did not ordain it so it did not happen. In other words, God prevents us from being as evil as we would be without His control and prevention. On our own we are carnal and evil. God knows this. Without God nothing good can come out of us that is why we need God to work on and in us which He does. So for God it is much more powerful than just a thought as you suggest. God doen't THINK we are going to sin. HE KNOWS IT!

I don't have a problem with God not preordaining sins, but I don't see how that goes with us not having free will, There is no short cut. You have to think for hours and hours on what Ray has taught. Ray had to think for thousands of hours to get the revelation. and God working all things after the counsel of His own will. I understand we have a mind, and we can think, but if we don't have free will, our mind is made to think, and we are caused to will. Therefore, the littl girl rapist is caused to rape her. Correct. Any one can be the rapist. The point to watch for is that the rapist LIKES to rape and sin and enjoys  carnality until God begins to teach, chastise and train him to begin to loath his sins and eventually cry to God to deliver him from out of his wretchedness and bestiality.  He did not do it freely, on his own without any causation because then that would mean he had freewill. Correct. We are to be made to know evil just like God knows evil and in the image of His Son, to eventually be washed of all sins stains and made pure and sinless not because we have never sinned but because we are purified through the sin offering that Jesus has paid already. Therefore, I find this concept of no free will,  yet, sins are not preordained to be confusing.   God creates evil. Man’s carnality lusts to sin. Without evil there can be no sin. Eventually there will be no evil. Jesus Christ will save us all from sin and we will be made into the image of Christ. Evil is the process and sin and death will one day be no more when God will be all in all and death will be defeated.

I believe, if we truly don't have free will, and if our lives are preordained, whether we'd be rich or poor, criminal or a law obiding citizen, gay, straight, or pedophile, then
someone like that little girl rapist was predestinated to rape little girls. That's why he is attracted to little girls, if he could have changed that, then you might say he can thwart God's plan for his life, no? Yes. For this reason we should be on our knees every day thanking God that He has not selected us to be a vessel for His wrath. We should be appreciating and perceiving God’s Grace Mercy and Unmerited Favor towards us and this should be aspiring us towards a spirit and soul of deep awe and knowledge of Gods power and plan to save all.   or are we to believe that God's plan and intention for this man's life was for him to be a law obiding, God fearing citizen, and he just freely chose on his own to rape little girls? No. We should not believe such unfounded unscriptural and unscientific nonsense. Wouldn't that also be thwarting God's plan? No. That would be God giving  them over to a reprobate mind Rom 1 : 28 But who has withstood His intention? Non one as Ray teaches but everyone has gone against the will of God. Pharaoh did and we all do because we have all fallen short of God’s glory.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

andrevan:
Hi Everyone.

I completely understand your dilemma Sorin.
I have been struggling with this preordained thing and sin ever since coming across Ray’s material. I cannot get my head around it completely ::). I agree with Ray and understand how we do not have a free will though.

I keep coming back to the following reasoning:
People’s actions (like child molestation) are caused by something either known or unknown to that person and other people.

Circumstances and causes bring a man to a situation where he then rapes a girl. Who brings about the causes? Who is the first cause? Who brought about the causes to make the man become lustful and cause him to rape?

Is God not the first cause, if God has Satan on a leash, then God is still the first cause is He not? God brought about the causes that hardened pharaoh’s heart, God brought about the causes that hardened the Jews’ hearts when Jesus taught them. God brings about the causes that cause a man to rape a girl. God is responsible is He not? We are accountable for our sins, but God is the one who brings about the causes that make us sin. It could not have been any other way for that man who rapes a girl, he was caused by circumstances.

I wish I could get my head around this. Ray’s second reply to that email did not go far enough for me. I know God does not sin, and He is not evil, but He still causes sin and evil through circumstances?

I know God understands my problem with this, hopefully He can use someone here to set me right. To me it is all about God’s causation.

God’s peace to you all.  :)
Andrevan.

stego:
Hi Sorin,
    Well i must say i am very surprised by Ray's email response on this topic.  I think we cannot deny that God is the cause of the universe and everything and everyone in it, and has planned/dictated/ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happen in the universe.  Sorin, I agree with you, his response doesn't make sense, and is not compatible with what he has previously said on this topic.  I think Ray would not deny that God planned from the very beginning that he would eat a girl scout cookie at exactly the time that Ray actually did eat a girl scout cookie.  And if God planned it, there was no way it would not happen because what God plans God also dictates and ordains to happen.  Ray has done an excellent job of explaining why God intended for us to experience evil, and a rapist is just another example of evil in action.  So there is nothing wrong with God intending for a rapist to rape someone, because such experiences of evil serve a much much greater purpose in the future.  So although Ray is correct that the scriptures don't specifically say that God ordains rapists, we know from other scripture that God is the cause of all evil.   There is nothing that has happened or will ever happen that God has not planned/ordained/dictated/intended to happen.  Anyways, I'm befuddled by Ray's response, but I have yet to be convinced that God has not ordained everything that has ever happened and will ever happened.   Maybe Ray believes the word "ordained" means something different then "To prearrange unalterably; predestine"   ???

Brett:
Well.............. :-\

I understand very well of Sorin's confusing and so was Lee. They have good points and so are Andrevan. I have to admit, I am confused, too. Not that I am confused in God’s words, but in e-mail.....  I have been holding and not to say anything for long time until I see e-mail section "Preordained". This is not the first time, I have seen several times. I though, "Oh no! Not again!" I still not want to say anything because I feel it will brush us off. I just finished study of "Lake of Fire Series: 'Myth of Free Will Exposed'" part b today, and now I start to study in part c in few pages. I though this letters of comments with scriptures are profound proof to me. Ray did very well matching scriptures to scriptures. I am so happy to know more deep. This stuff is very deep things to know the mystery of God. But, today with "Preordained" in the e-mail............ Gee! I don’t know............. I feared this would not pretty debating.

Anyway, I see all the happening in the world everyday, not just rape girls, many things happening, men dragged woman to death on the road in front of her children at the middle east, etc, etc, etc. Those things are difficult understand for me (maybe just barely little understand) of why this must happened. I hate to see terrible things in the world. But I know one thing, when we resurrection in the future, whether first or second, we will (and all mankind) finally understand of how and why God operated in this whole world for His own good. What good? To save all mankind. Heal all this sick, evil, pain, bitter, weep, etc, etc... and for His glory before us (Rom. 8:20). I have confidence at the resurrection. It will be good. We never considering of God is sick person (or disgusting). Joseph had trouble understand of why his brothers' evil things had to happen to him, then for long time, their brothers came to Joseph and finally he now see clearly of why God brought this happened was for His own good. For what happened? For He saved many from the starve to death. That was good! God will judge all mankind for what they have done, He will discipline, pruning, and they will learn God's truth.

Brett  :)

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