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Preordained
sansmile:
What a thought provoking thread! it's late here in the UK and i should be sleeping.... but i seem to be seeing..maybe i am wrong...but i am seeing a concentration on LEVEL of sin. What shocks some may not others. To people,that call themselves christians..they might say, that we (non mainstream) are worse than rapists are murderers...because we see the truth and say it...it is bitter to their stomachs. I have had many say to me that i am an heretic ... i will burn more..because they say to me that i know Christ but wont accept His word. You all know what mean......in that they say we are blaspheming. What i have seen in His word with regard to sin is....there are no levels. Yes, i believe some will receive more stripes than others, will spend a shorter or longer time in the lake of fire, but we all have siinned. We need to be careful lest we boast.
Josh said...."when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go" i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.Paul explained it perfectly in Romans. I think we really need to understand what preordained means versus pre knowledge. many of us are in differant walks and He reveals to us all at differant times, He has in His wisdom ,not mine, given me understanding of the " free will " myth. He knows what we will choose in the choices He has given us, cause He knows NOT TIME. We measure what is happening to us individually,by time, ....looking back is how we can see..looking back is when we see the beast. Is our beast lesser than the rapist...the murderer. If we want to judge levels ofsin we need to really look at how much truth we have in us. I do not believe that the child rapist does not feel some remorse or guilt, i believe he/she sees the beast IN themselves but doesnt recognise that the beast is the carnal in them because they do Not know the spirit of truth. Paul said he was judged perfect in the law, because he knew NOT what sin was. Sometimes in here we need to remember.......judge ourselves and we will not be judged. Our focus should be on Him...by thinking we have "free will "annuls Him and totally contradicts the truth we have been shown. He is sovereign He is creat ING us in His image, WE have been pre ordained as children of God .......only because He has seen........not thru time (as we know it) but through Him being all knowing a concept we as mankind, can never truly understand because we have not YET the mind of God. We are not YET perfected.
May God give us understanding through His Living word
Sandie
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: sansmile on March 14, 2007, 11:26:29 PM ---
"when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go" i really at times dont feel that, i feel it would be SO EASY to let go, because this is a means to an end.
--- End quote ---
Hi Sandie,
I am certainly with you here, perhaps it is because of the number of years I have been in this flesh (53 later this month) and the accelerated life experiences both good and bad that have transpired I must admit a weariness of this present world, I so look forward to the next age.
The unknown things He has in store for us I know in my spirit will be so vastly superior to what we see, feel and think presently that there is no comparison, I am anxiously anticipating His Kingdom.
Other than family and friends there isn't much in this world I feel tethered to any more, since I know they will all be with me eventually I haven't much fear of a short, blink of an eye separation.
I hope I do not sound meloncholy because I am not, it is just that I am over the earthly things I once held dear, even though certain temptations are still mighty thorns in my flesh. I guess I am tired of that too. ;)
His Peace to you,
Joe
josh:
Gena,
A couple of thoughts on your last post…
You state:
“God made vessels for honor & dishonor. Jacob have I loved, Esau have I "less loved". God created evil.”
I agree with all of these statements except about Esau being “less loved”… I believe Ray shares some thoughts on this on the second part of the Feb. Bible Study on “Love”… it was also discussed shortly after on a thread here at the forum…
Here is the thread: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3469.0.html
“All is by plan & design. I believed that when I scratch my nose God had me do it from the foundation of the world. All my stupid and not so stupid mistakes thru out my life were for me to bring me to where I am and still going
So the rapist, or hitler, or the cheater on taxes were all made to be that way. Our sins reveal the idols of our hearts. So are we now saying that God just KNEW what we were gonna do and doesn't stop it? Is there any room at all for some small "free will" things going on??”
I’m by no means an expert on this subject… here is an excerpt from Ray’s LOF series, Free Will Part C:
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GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION
All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:
“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist [‘has its cohesion,’ ]” (Col. 1:16-17).
Since “by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion,” why is it that only man and his fabled “free-moral-agency-will” is the only truly “free radical” in the universe? Nonsense! Even “free radicals” operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is “working—operating” all that exists, and that includes the “will” of all mankind. Here’s some more Scriptural proof:
“…God which works [‘operates’] all in all ” (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh? When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can “desire” great things, but He cannot actually “accomplish” great things is absurd.
Here is Christian theology at its best: God invents man. God desires for man to work a certain way. Man fails to work in the way that God desires. Out of uncontrollable frustration, God tortures his mal-functioning invention for all eternity. And no one sees a problem with this anti-scriptural heresy.
Who among us has not seen in real life or in the movies: A man invents a machine. He desires for his invention to work a certain way. The invention fails to work in the desired way. The inventor smashes the mal-functioning machine into a thousand pieces? We laugh at such stupid and juvenile behavior, yet we worship a god who supposedly acts a thousand times more stupid and evil than our carnal-minded inventor. Go figure.
What kind of insanity blames a “created machine” for any mal-functions? God created the human race; God is responsible for any and all activities of the human race. No one asked to be born! And yet… and YET, there are those evil-minded theologians and Christians who believe that God will not only torture most of His creatures, but that He actually knew in advance of their creation that He would torture most of them in literal fire for all eternity!
Not only would such an “Inventor” be stupid, but he would be evil beyond words to describe. Yet even all of this stupidity and evil of the human heart, “…is of God.” Most have not yet even conceived of the Judgment that will come on them for the heresy of their own hearts. This judgment of our hearts is also part of God’s grand plan. God has made man in this weakened spiritual state for a grand and glorious destiny. Man is not yet created in God’s full spiritual Image, but that is the process, purpose, and destiny of the human race—to finally be the very Image of God Himself.
The Scriptures plainly show and state in many places, that the natural mind of man cannot love and obey God. Yet theologians tell us that unless man does, of his own free will, love and obey God, that God will torture them in fire for all eternity. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
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Hope this helps.
Josh
josh:
Sandi,
I think we are in more agreement then you realize...
"There are moments (even though they are few) when this life feels so sweet that I don’t want to let it go… when I can’t imagine anything being better then what I have or what I desire to have… but more often, this life is a constant reminder of how “unfinished” I really am… maybe “different” won’t be so bad Sorin… I can’t imagine it either and most of the time it’s scary and uncomfortable to imagine what comes after this life… but I am every day attempting to open up my heart to believe that the Father truly does love of and has our best interest in mind… but trust is hard to learn."
God's Peace
Josh
gmik:
Thanks Joe and Josh!!
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