Pastor's view on tithing

[josh]

Bev,

This might portion of "Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Testament Parts II" may help in answering your question... you can find the rest of the paper on the main page of Bible-truths.com...

JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW, NOT TO RELIVE THE LAW

Christians believe that Jesus came to FULFILL the Law of Moses by RELIVING the law of Moses in His own personal life. He assuredly did not. This is an entire study of itself, however, I want to prove to you from the Scriptures that Jesus did not concern Himself with Tithes and Taxes, and restrictions of the Law of Moses.

THE TEMPLE TAX

Not only did Jesus not tithe, because He was a carpenter and carpenters were not obligated to tithe, but neither did He pay the Temple tax, which was commanded by the Law of Moses for all men in Israel to pay annually. Of the 613 laws of Moses, this is Law # 404:

"This they shall give, every one that passes among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs): an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord.

Every one that passes among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.

The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls.

And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle [in Jesus' time, to the Temple] of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls" (Exodus 30:13-16).

Jesus Christ did not pay this yearly tax to the Temple, for the same reason that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath day commandment. Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, (Matt. 12:. And likewise, Jesus is not only Lord of the Temple, Jesus is the Temple,

(John 2:19). And, furthermore, Jesus was the Lord to Whom Israel gave the half shekel as an offering. Jesus does not need an atonement for His soul; Jesus Christ is the Atonement, (Rom. 5:9-11).

Notice this remarkable story of the only time the temple tax came up in the ministry of Jesus. Most Christians will never hear an explanation of these verses as long as they live! These verses are highly incriminating to those who teach the tithing of money to the Church:

"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Does not your master pay tribute [Greek: 'pay the double drachma' which was the exact amount of the annual Temple tax]?

He says, Yes [Peter was embarrassed and apparently not honest with his answer]. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him [Greek: 'prophthano,'—'to get an earlier start of,' 'forestalls' or 'anticipated him'], saying, What do you think, Simon? Of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute [taxes]? Of their own children [sons] or of strangers?

Peter said unto Him, of strangers. Jesus said unto him, THEN ARE THE CHILDREN FREE.

Notwithstanding, LEST WE SHOULD OFFEND THEM, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first comes up; and when you have opened his mouth, thou shall find a piece of money [Gk: 'statar' –the exact temple tax for two]: that take and give unto them for Me and thee" (Matt. 17:24-27).

What an amazing story! What a telling teaching truth from Scriptures we have here! No wonder most Christians have never heard this Scripture explained in Church.

The reason Peter said "yes" to the tribute collector is because it was embarrassing to Him to say, "NO, my master does NOT pay temple tax." It was such a small amount of money (less than a dollar). But now Peter has to go into the house give Jesus an appraisal of what just happened. Jesus being merciful to Peter does not reprimand him for not being honest with the tribute collector, but rather, cuts him off [forestalls him] before he can speak and saves Peter the embarrassment.

The point is this: Jesus did not pay temple tax because Jesus is the King of the kingdom. And if the children are free, certainly the King Himself is free.

Might I add that, neither did Jesus stone or condone others to stone, the woman caught in the very act of adultery even thought the Law of Moses demanded it:

"And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer AND THE ADULTERESS SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH" (Lev. 20:10).

Now then, did Jesus come to "fulfill" this Law of Moses by living, teaching and carrying out that law? He surely did not. He rather said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). If we are to believe that "fulfilling the law" of Moses can only be accomplished by living, teaching and enforcing the law of Moses, then something is wrong with that theory because Jesus obviously did NOT carry out many commands of the law of Moses in His own life!

The theologians have debased the New Covenant as being nothing more than the Old Covenant, with a few added twists. Jesus "fulfilled the law" not by adding a few spiritual twists to it, but by keeping a MUCH HIGHER SPIRITUAL LAW that actually contradicted much of the letter of Moses' Law.

One doesn't need a physical law of the letter chiseled in stone, to "keep the sabbath" when he has entered into "God's SPIRITUAL REST" in his heart.

One doesn't need a physical law of the letter to "swear by His name" when in his heart his desire is to "swear NOT at all."

One doesn't need a physical law chiseled in stone telling him "thou shalt not commit adultery" when in his heart he no longer "even looks on a woman to lust after her."

One doesn't need a physical law telling him to "HATE his enemies" when now in his very heart, he "LOVES his enemies."

For you newcomers to the world of theology, LOVE is lot different than just putting a spiritual twist on HATE. Not swearing at all is more than putting a spiritual twist on the commandment TO SWEAR. Am I going too fast for anyone?

And neither did Jesus take the commandment to "bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse" and spiritually twist it into "bring ye all the money into the pastor's bank account."

And so what is it that Jesus is teaching us with regards to money? Simple, neither the king nor his children pay tax—any tax (including even Temple tax)! "...then are the children FREE." Need I remind anyone that we are the children of God's kingdom? And neither our King, nor we, pay taxes or tithes to our own kingdom.

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Jesus] IS, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 1:17).

And so the reason... the only reason, that Jesus paid this tax was, "...lest we should offend them." Not because it was a LAW OF MOSES and Jesus had to keep the law of Moses, but only because, "...lest we should offend them."

Furthermore, where did Jesus get the money (the very small amount of money) to pay this temple tax so as to not offend them? From His own pocket? From the treasury held by Judas? From Peter's house? No. He had God provide for it in a fish from the sea. Jesus did not even deign to pay this tax from His own money. And say, did you notice that Jesus paid for Himself and Peter only? He did not even pay for the other eleven.

Do you suppose we are sinning if we follow His steps by not tithing? Should we follow His steps, or commandments of the clergymen?

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).[/color]

Hope this helps.

God's Peace.
Josh

[Jennie]

I wonder how this life would be if we helped others instead of waiting for a church or the gov't or what have you to help those in need. If I knew that someone needed a coat and I had 2 if I gave it without question. How many coats can you wear at once? I think we as followers of Christ miss the mark on this one most always.
About the tithe.... a little bitty church I went to when I was young did take up an offering. The church was so little that 3 little churches shared the 1 preacher. He was a very good man, kind and loving to all. After the sermon he left to go to the next church. Then we had Sunday School or Bible study whatever you want to call it, a small group time. As most know we were very poor when I grew up. Poor to the point that I picked up grocery bags of pine cones from the yards of rich folks. They didn't want their yard men to mow over them and they would give you 10 cents for a bag full. I did this often to help buy food for us. My Momma always gave me and my brother a dimes each to put in the Sunday offering,. She gave 25 cents. One day one of the teachers( the one that taught my Momma's group, took the plate around the room. Momma put in her quarter and he started going offf on her in front of everybody. He was saying that she didn't love God the way she should and was making a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus by saying that she must think the sacrifice wasn't worth more that a quarter. This went on and on for some time. Fortunately her brothers were there and got her out of there. My Momma was a gentle soul, quiet and easily embarrassed. She was giving all she could. The preacher wasn't at fault but I think that man surely was. The uncles got Momma out and went back and had words with this fellow. She never got over thst , it hurt her do bad.
That's not to say that everybody is like that man but many are and that is hurtful and wrong. Jennie

[Flipper]

The best is when these pastors bring up the Malachi verses "How ye rob God . . . in tithes and offerings"   

I wonder how many have flipped back to chapter 2 to see just WHO God was addressing!



     

[keys2heaven]

I had to sing with the praise team this past Sunday. My wife was running the powerpoint and lyrics from a room that overlooks the sanctamasium. When I was done singing, I went up and sat with her. The room is also used for recording of the services and a couple of the chuch members were in there helping with that. Anyway, to be truthful, I blanked through most of the sermon. But, when I looked up again, there were offering plates put around the edge of the platform. People were going up and putting yet more money in those plates. Mind you, the "offering" had already been taken.

Apparently, the sermon was about what our purpose is and related back to finishing up the new ministry center which has been 3 years in the works. I guess they still need $15,000 to finish up the building (furnish the inside). Of course, when they were building the new ministry center, the construction budget went over and they came to the congregation for that amount. Then, just last month, it was only $400 that they needed to finish, and they came to the congregation for that. Now this. The pastor ended his sermon by stating that if you feel led by God to give, then give. If you don't feel led by God, then don't give. How I truly dislike the public display of money giving.

In between services, I asked one of the members that was in the room working with recording how "tacky" I thought passing the plate was. I stated why not just put a drop box at the back door and people can drop off their offering on the way out. I said this to see what the response would be. She told me that they tried that once and nobody gave. I guess most parishoners are so conditioned to "passing the plate" that they don't know what to do if there is no plate.

On a side note. I wrote to one of the parishoners offline about the topic of tithing/giving that was being discussed on the chuch forums and led to this post. This individual stated that they had never heard a good excuse not to give/tithe. So, I gave them some info about the tithe as Ray teaches. Funny thing is that this person's father is the church treasurer. However, I never heard back from this person after writing to them.

Well, while I was sitting next to my wife after singing on Sunday, this individual's father comes up to where we were sitting to find me. I though "Oh boy, he must have been shown what I wrote and want to have word with me about tithing". Actually, he came up to complement me on singing and told me I needed to do some more solos, but it made me nervous. I still don't believe that was his real purpose. I wonder what he would have said if I was alone.

Oh well, the saga continues....

[Bev]

In Medias Res,

Thanks. What you shared was truly a blessing. it prompted me into reading the rest of Ray's articles (both parts) on tithing. He is really sharp, and definitely being used by THE HOLY SPIRIT. I use to always wonder about Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Ray puts it in perfect perspective and now I can kind of understand why Jesus said in Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Thank you much for sharing this with me. It truly has opened up my eyes to some things.

IN CHRIST,


Bev

[Flipper]

Wow that is awesome!  I have been searching High and Low for that line of demarcation between LAW and GRACE

 

[josh]

My pleasure Bev. Glad to help anytime.

[Bev]

Wow that is awesome!  I have been searching High and Low for that line of demarcation between LAW and GRACE.

Flipper, I'm not completely certain of what you're referring to but as far as grace is concerned Galatians 5:5 says - For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

THE SPIRIT speaks on this forum.

[keys2heaven]

Since posting this thread, the past two Sunday's have really led me to believe that God is getting my attention. Tithing has been a hot topic and, in fact, our assistant pastor came out and stated point blank to the congregation that he wanted to talk about the SCRIPTURAL basis for tithing.

I was walking off of the platform after singing with the praise group when I heard him say this. A part of me wanted to stop right there and state emphatically before the congregation that there is no such SCRIPTURAL basis for new testament believers to tithe. It amazing. Everything I once believed is a lie and I bought it...hook, line and sinker.

Another note. On Sunday evenings, we have "small groups". Kind of like an informal Bible study. The last one we attended, which was fall of last year was when I first discovered this site. I had just finished reading Ray's commentary on the myth of free will. It turns out that the lesson that evening talked exclusively about free will. I tried to put into words what I could gather from Ray's teachings. But, I ended up making a few people upset. They pulled out all of the typical rhetoric that Ray uses as examples in his lessons.

Well, my wife convinced me to go to our small group this last Sunday. I told her that she needed to understand that I have my own beliefs about certain things and that they don't line up with what most church doctrine's teach. I told her that if anything came up that I didn't believe in, then I would probably be very silent.

Wouldn't you know. We get there and the lesson is on FREE WILL. I couldn't believe it. It was like God was saying, "Ha! Got you good." and was causing the circumstances so that I WOULD have to speak up. Well, I did a much better job of presenting what Ray taught. There were a few heads that shook when I stated emphatically that I believe that there is no such thing as Free Will or Free Moral Agency or the like. It was a very lively conversation and I was able to use scriptures to start making my points. It was at that point that some people actually grew silent and opened up their Bible to make sure I was saying what the Bible said. I was.



I still need to read over all of this about a gazillion more times and thoroughly commit it to memory. I want to be able to instantly give an answer for any question or argument that could come up about free will. But, I want to thank Ray for doing SOOOOOOOOOO much of the ground work for simpletons like myself. I do owe Ray a huge debt of gratitude.

[dogcombat]

It was at that point that some people actually grew silent and opened up their Bible to make sure I was saying what the Bible said. I was.

Once people start to actually READ their bibles, they would see a ton of honey flavored heresy being shoved down their throats by Christiandom's traditions.

Ches

[GODSown1]

Hey hows it keys2heaven,
                                   I just want to say to U, I know exactly what ur saying, especially the bit on U know the answer but! just dont really no how to put it, scripticially etc... Becoz I hav a new found friend say to me, "STOP" I dont want to hear anymore U are being Deceived! by Ray & whomeva follow the same teachings, I just replied, NO! U are being Deceived, But! I couldnt really Xsplain myself properly!, but we are still friends lol! becoz I LOVE him az a brother anyway as I know GOD! will lead him to the Truth sooner or later, & he was the guy that GOD used to guide me! to Him (from the darkness to the Light) aw! I was reading him the Hypocrites, Snakes one lol!, I just know!! to just keep strong, as its GODS Plan anyway!,
                                     muchLOVE!! Pera