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A Question about freewill
GODSown1:
I will get to understand in JESUS name
Sorin:
While I understand the concept of making choices, or making a choice which is the only possible choice we could have made in any situation, and since our lives are preordained, then likewise, our choices are preordained. So since none of us can make a choice other then what we are preordained to choose, then I have a hard time understanding how God does not preordain our sins.
I mean, Ray even said, that God even pre-arranges [which is basically preordains] our marriages, who we will marry or even if we will ever get married. And Ray also said God even pre-arranges the bad marriages. So if God is that much envolved in our lives, then why not also in our sins? Is that part.....dare I say.... our own free will? But Ray doesn't believe in free will [and I'm not necessarily saying I do] so without
free will, then we didn't freely choose to sin......... we just couldn't choose otherwise. See what I'm saying? Confusing.
YellowStone:
Sorin,
Kat provided the following email response from Ray that I think will benefit you. Ray makes a very good case against the difference between foreordained and foreknowlegde. :)
Hope you don't mind me butting in :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Thanks Kay for posting this ....
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.0.html --------------
Dear Sean and Forum:
Regarding your statement: "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND." The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie" and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING? Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it. Hope you will all be patient.
God be with you,
Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kat:
Hi Sorin,
This is a difficult thing to comprehend.
Here is a interesting scripture I found.
Eze 14:21 `For thus said the Lord Yahweh:Although My four sore judgments--sword, and famine, and wild beast, and pestilence--I have sent unto Jerusalem, to cut off from it man and beast,
v. 22 yet, lo, there has been left in it an escape, who are brought forth, sons and daughters, lo, they are coming forth unto you, and you have seen their way, and their doings, and have been comforted concerning the evil that I have brought in against Jerusalem, all that which I have brought in against it."
v. 23 And they have comforted you, for you see their way and their doings, and you have known that not for nought have I done all that which I done in herthat not for nought have I done all that which I have done in her--an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh.'"
I think in verse 21 God is referring to the evil experience we have in this life.
In verse 22 could this escape be talking about ultimate salvation for all, for means of the elect, sons and daughters.
And in verse 23 I think He is saying in the grand scheme of things, if you look at the big picture, this evil experience is worth it.
It is hard to see out pass this present suffering. But then again I don't remember a lot of the things of my childhood, with very good clarity now(even tho. at 50 that was some time ago ::) ).
What I am saying these evil experiences will not be remember for very long, especially when there will be so much wonder to behold when we escape this flesh body. We will still have the experience in our knowledge, but the suffering I just don't believe will be something we ever think on, because when we are at one with God it will all be good. And we will know it is good, because we know what is bad.
Do you see what I mean?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Jackie Lee:
Kat last night when I was attempting to sleep The thought came to me That in comparsion to what God has prepared for us the suffering rapes murders all of these things will be worth it all.
The people that has had all these evil things happen would not of had it any other way.
I am not sure if this was God or just me trying to figure this thing of life out.
I like Sorin, am having a hard time with all the evil that happens especially to defenseless children.
My spirit tells me though Ray is right on freewill.
I think free will is the lie that is so hard to relent to.
I have always believed through years of churching that I had freewill and everything good or bad was my own doing, not of God.
This is so hard for me to understand, but yet I understand if that makes sense.
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