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If God alone has immortality.....

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rrammfcitktturjsp:
Joe,

  I am trying to figure out whether the illusion of time is necessary for our growth in our spiritual relations with Jesus and others.  I think it is necessary, and without the illusion of time, we would not have need of eachother or of God.  I am wondering what your take on this.

  Thanks, what you had to say was very deep and illuminating. 

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire

Kat:

Hi Arcturus,

I have been thinking on about some of the things that you posted.


--- Quote ---Does this show that The Life IS GOD the Source of eonian life? Is eonian life THAT life that is given as a gift through Christ?  God has given THE Life to Christ Who has been able to declare that He is THE LIFE because LIFE is inherently in HIM.
--- End quote ---

All living creatures on earth have life, everything that breathes was given life by God.

Gen 1:30  "And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life..."

Gen 2:7  then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

So all living things are given life and spirit and makes a living soul.

Isa 38:15  What shall I say? He has spoken to me, and He Himself has acted; I shall go softly all my years in the bitterness of my soul.
Isa 38:16  O Jehovah, by these things men live, and in all these is the life of my spirit; so You will recover me, and make me to live.

It’s interesting that the life is in the blood.

Lev 17:11  “For the life of the flesh is in the blood…”

But after the resurrection Christ said He was flesh and bones, no mention of blood there.

Luke 24:39  Behold My hands and My feet, that I am He! Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see Me have.

So we know that Life is in Christ, but is it the same 'life' that animals or even carnal humans have?  Well, of course not.

2Tim 1:1  "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,"

1John 5:11 "And this is the testimony, that God gives us life eonian, and this life is in the Son."

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the Word of Life."
v. 2 And the Life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the Life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us." (CLV)

So the life that is so often spoken of in the NT that we receive from Christ is a NEW LIFE, and is the gift of God.

Rom 6:4  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

We receive this newness of life, when Christ abides in us.  It is not the same as the breath of life given all creatures.

1John 3:24  And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

1Cor 2:12  Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Now the elect will fully receive this new life in the Spirit. at the first resurrection, now we just have the begettal.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give lifegive life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This Spirit of life will not come to the rest of humanity until the GWTJ.

John 3:36  He who believes in the Son has everlasting (eonian) life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


--- Quote ---I believe that eventually when Christ returns all back to God, the differences will be erased as God becomes all in all rather like our identities will dissolve into the boundless omnipresence and omnipotence and omniscience of God.
--- End quote ---

We can only speculate on this, but I don’t think we will loose our identities, by dissolving into God, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?   
It seems to me at the first resurrection the elect unites with Christ and the Father in the kingdom, and will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness.   
But I was thinking we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life.  It just seems like He gave us these great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose.
And isn't the whole universe waiting for the perfecting of the human race. 
If you think about it, God does not make anything in vain, there must be something He has in mind for all these planets.  The human race that is being created into HIs image have such a variety of personalities and interest and even abilities, what a great way to put that all into use.  Christ is our example and look at what He did at creation.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
v. 20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope v. 21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This is just my mind wonderings, but it gives you a lot to think about  :)

Mercy, peace, and love
Kat

skydreamers:
Hi Guys!

Oh boy, I have A LOT to catch up on!  I've had a wonderful busy weekend with my family so I've not yet had a chance to absorb what has been written in this thread.  At first glance I have to say....GREAT STUFF.  So many thoughts and insights to learn from.

Kat, your last post was truly profound.  I had never thought about how our life in the flesh is in the blood, but in the spirit our life is in Christ.  I mean, I knew these things but did not think much on this transition of our carnal  life to the newness of life in Christ.  Now to think of how Christ shed His blood for us is yet another example of what we must experience...losing the life in the blood and gaining the life in Christ.  The blood must be shed:  the carnal man must be shed.  It adds more meaning to why there MUST be death. 

It seems to me even death is a parable!


--- Quote ---Quote
I believe that eventually when Christ returns all back to God, the differences will be erased as God becomes all in all rather like our identities will dissolve into the boundless omnipresence and omnipotence and omniscience of God.

We can only speculate on this, but I don’t think we will loose our identities, by dissolving into God, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?   
It seems to me at the first resurrection the elect unites with Christ and the Father in the kingdom, and will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness.   
But I was thinking we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life.  It just seems like He gave us these great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose.

--- End quote ---

I would say I'd have to agree with you on this one Kat.  I too believe that our uniqueness will be retained when we are all in all in God.  I believe it is in the wisdom of God to have us be of like mind and spirit yet still have our individual traits intact.  We know this is so right now in our fleshly lives.  Will it change in the spiritual?  I don't know, but I don't think so.  Right now the elect, with all their differences, make up the body of Christ.  The hands and the feet are different yet it is all ONE body.  You can still be one, yet have differences.  This is how I see it at this point, which admittedly is limited since my finite mind cannot entirely comprehend what it's going to be like in the spiritual.


--- Quote ---To All,

  Seems to me the answers You are looking for You are trying to base them in a limited system, that being time.  When one steps away and realizes that the time contiunium does not exist, then immortality ceases to have meaning as well does image.  For it just simply is.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire

--- End quote ---

Hi Anne, you may very well have a valid point here.  Although I haven't been able to listen to all of it, I know Ray was talking about time in his last audio.  He was suggesting that a "circle" is the closest thing we can compare to the idea of eternity.  There is no beginning and no end.  We are somewhere on that circle.  Our experience is relative right now to what we physically know.  Ray was saying:  "What's in outer space?"  We are! 

Our experience right now is one day to the next, getting older and hopefully with time and circumstances, getting wiser.  Because of that, my mind has a hard time right now trying to conceive of the idea that the time continuum does not exist, even if it doesn't.  It's a perplexing position to be in! 

Therefore Anne, I'd have to say that I agree with you that if time is an illusion, it is still necessary because as you say:

 "without the illusion of time, we would not have need of each other or of God".

I think my whole thing in thinking about the spirit beings and whether or not they have immortality is trying to grasp an understanding of who WE are in God's mind.  I know it has been said he desires a family who will be of like mind and spirit with him.  I wonder then sometimes, are not the good spirit beings already fulfilling this role?  Aren't they also called "the sons of God"?   As the human race I sense that we are and will be different, rare and dare I say special. We do not seem to have any other information of any other creatures who have had to go through this physical carnal struggle in this material world of good and bad.  This life we are leading in the flesh in necessary to having a full understanding of good and evil.  Do the messengers of God, whether spirit or human, have an understanding of these things?

1 Peter 1:12 ESV
12  It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
 
I remember somewhere Ray saying that angels/messengers do not teach but rather the elect will be teaching them:

1 Corinthians 6:3 ESV
3  Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

This is incredible to think that now we are made lower than the angels, yet at some point, some of us will be judging them!  And this is what fascinates me.  What does that say about who we are!  This indeed is a "high calling".  For me, it gives a deeper meaning into the necessity of suffering.  Our experience is very different, it seems, from that of the spirit beings.  And when God is all in all, I tend to think we will continue to retain this uniqueness that is set apart from  the angels.  I don't think on these things to puff myself up, but to make sense of the depths of suffering that is out there.....if we must face these horrible things we can have faith that it truly was worth it. 

Ray has also said, that everything that is happening is necessary.  Even the molesting of children is necessary.  We don't want it to be so, we are saddened that it is so.  But it nonetheless is necessary.  This is still really a hard one for me to embrace.  I know it is true.....but it's hard to accept.  And I don't imagine that angels are molesting each other...

 In the scripture that Kat posted (thank you Kat for compiling that!) we see that Jesus did not come to help the angels (Heb 2:16) and I imagine it's because they don't NEED help. Again, they do not have to go through what we are going through, therefore how could they end up in the same form/state/position that humans will be in? 

Hebrews 1:14 NLT
14  But angels are only servants. They are spirits sent from God to care for those who will receive salvation.
 
 So at the end of the day, I guess my initial question of whether or not angels have immortality was not really the center of where God would have me focus, but was more of a catalyst to reflecting on who we are and how we are precious in God's eyes.  And I love the fact that it brought out wonderful posts and insights that got me thinking even deeper.  Very cool. 

As far as 1 TIM 6:16, I think Josh and Jay made a lot of sense...thanks for your posts guys:


--- Quote ---This is how I understand the issue concerning where the Bible states that only God has immortality:

God is the source and author of life. Life inheres in Him. He doesn't derive it from anyone or anything else.
Rather, all of His created beings, whether they be angelic or human, receive life from Him, THE Source! So, whether the angels are immortal at present (which I believe they are) or when immortality is conferred to humans in the future, it still will be true that God ALONE is the ONLY one that possess immortality inasmuch as HE IS that life source. It is HIS possession which He grants as a GIFT to His creatures.

As far as the angels, look at what Jesus says here:

Luke 20:36  "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Also, Jesus Himself states that He has the same quality of life that God the Father has, with one major difference:

John 5:26  "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

The Father is the Source of Christ's life as well.

God bless.

Jay
 

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Is it possible that 1 Tim.6:15-16 is a description/statement of ownership… as thought to say, God is the only one who has ownership of or is able to offer/give immortality?
--- End quote ---

Thanks everyone,
Peace and love to all,
Diana

GODSown1:
Hi alL
      WelL I thort Id just say sumfing haha! Isnt its GODS will d@ matters n e way!? Or is it da Fact U just need 2 nO? haha!, so either way will it change ur View on our Heavenly! FATHER?, sorry! But! it was da Fact that nO one really answered ur Question I thort Id be safe & answer it for U like this lol!
                                                 muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. lol! I opened my Bible randomly & this Verse just popped out to mE!, JEREMIAH 32: 27, & Im not tryna b a smart a..! haha!
    Takecare!

Kat:

Hi Pera,

I see you have made yourself right at home here  :)
It doesn't matter what we think, the Truth is the Truth.  But we do fellowship and when we share we grow in knowledge.  So we are studing what we have from Ray and growning in the knowledge of the Truth.

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
v. 3  in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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