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ironcoin

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2 questions
« on: March 18, 2007, 01:38:10 PM »

Greetings:
Does anyone know the difference between the spirit and the soul. I had always thought of them as one and the same. Please give scriptual references or referal to where L Ray Smith has answered this.
Next on the cross Jesus said to another on the cross "This day you will be with me in paradise" -  Confusing if no man goes to be with God after death? As with the other question please give scriptual references or referal to where L. Ray Smith has answered this.
Appreciate any and all responses.

Ironcoin.
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Kat

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Re: 2 questions
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2007, 01:55:06 PM »


Hi Ironcoin,

Glad to have you here  :)

Quote
Does anyone know the difference between the spirit and the soul. I had always thought of them as one and the same.

Ray's article to James Kenney goes into your question about soul and spirit, and there is much more in the article.  Here is the link and an excerpt from the article.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ------------------------------
SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

This is substantiated by the fact that:

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

�         souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
�         souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
�         souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
�         souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
�         souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
�         souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
�         life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
�         souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
�         souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
�         none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
�         honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
�         even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
�         souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
�         souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
�         souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
�         and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.

FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:

SPIRIT
 [pneuma]
 is translated
 LIFE in Rev. 13:5
 
SOUL
 [nephesh]
 is translated
 HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
 
HEART
 [leb]
 is translated
 MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
 
SOUL
 [nephesh]
 is translated
 LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
 
SOUL
 [nephesh]
 is translated
 GHOST in Job 11:2
 
SPIRIT
 [pneuma]
 is translated
 GHOST in Mark 1:8
 
SOUL
 [nephesh]
 is translated
 BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
 
BEAST
 [chay]
 is translated
 LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
 
SOUL
 [nephesh]
 is translated
 BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
 
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.

The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.

Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).

It is by means of the "resurrection" that God causes dead people to live again. The Apostle Paul said: "Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged" (Acts 23:6). The truth regarding the "resurrection of the dead" is not even taught in Christendom today. They teach that there are no dead people (only dead bodies). They teach that people are either alive on earth, alive in Heaven, or alive in Hell. What need have we for a "resurrection of the dead" if there are no dead people to resurrect? This, my friend, is heresy!

Paul also stated: "Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith" (I Cor. 15:14-15). The very salvation of mankind rests on the resurrection. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
Next on the cross Jesus said to another on the cross "This day you will be with me in paradise" -  Confusing if no man goes to be with God after death?

This question is answered in an email I have brought here for you.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html --------------

Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.
 
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
 
But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
 
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
 
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
 
[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
 
[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
 
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
 
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
 
God be with you,
Ray
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the question, I hope this helps you out  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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ironcoin

  • Guest
Re: 2 questions
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2007, 07:07:20 PM »

Thank you Kat for taking the time to respond. Very helpful, have a great day.

Ironcoin
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