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Author Topic: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?  (Read 7130 times)

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Jay

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Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« on: March 23, 2007, 12:39:59 PM »

Greetings, folks -

Another one of those "nagging" questions that I have from the biblical record concerns Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son, Issac.

Why would God command Abraham to perform an act that is quite obviously against His own law? God commands against committing murder. Would not Abraham binding up his son on an altar, then slashing his throat and then burning him with fire constitute murder? If any parent ever tried this here in our legal system, there's no court in the land that would not exact punishment on that parent. Can we be more righteous than God? Can we have a keener sense of justice than He does? I seriously doubt that.

Isn't this act of placing one's child upon an altar for a sacrifice an abomination that the heathen practiced which drew forth God's condemnation? Did not God state in other places in the bible (can't remember where) that these acts that were committed by the heathen, you know, having their children burned in fire as a sacrifice to their false gods, something that God Himself has stated that such a notion never even entered His mind? If that's the case, then why would it enter into God's mind to have Abraham sacrifice his son in like manner?

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that I am questioning both the translation and the meaning of that story in the scriptures. Is there anyone that can shed any light on this issue?

Thanks.

God Bless.

Jay
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YellowStone

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 12:59:40 PM »

Hi Jay,

The story of Abraham and Issac has in my belief a deep and meaningful meaning of the promise that was yet to be fullfilled.

Gen 22:2  And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his a@@, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Gen 22:4  Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:5  And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the a@@; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Gen 22:6  And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gen 22:7  And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 22:8  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Gen 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Gen 22:10  And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Gen 22:11  And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.

Gen 22:12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Here we can see the connection between the ONLY son of Abraham and the ONLY son of God. :)

Gen 22:13  And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Here we see the ram being slain as a substitute for Isaac, in remarkably the same way that the Jesus Christ the man, was slain on behalf of all mankind.

I do not believe that the moral of the story has anything to do with committing murder, because this was not Gods plan. I believe it was instead used as a prelude of the promise to come.

Well that's my take on it.

Great question.....

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 01:04:44 PM by YellowStone »
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YellowStone

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 02:43:08 PM »

Hi Jay,

I want to add to the gross mistranslation of the King Jams in this story.

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, [here] I [am].

God did not TEMP Abraham, but rather tested him. We can learn more of this by looking at the Hebrew word translated "temp."

Temp - Hebrew for nacah {naw-saw'} [05254]

1) to test, try, prove, tempt, assay, put to the proof or test
  a) (Piel)
    1) to test, try
    2) to attempt, assay, try
    3) to test, try, prove, tempt


Test is the first meaning and God's on words spoken through his Angel gives us witness to this:

Gen 22:12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Of course God already knew, so this is not the message. The truth behind God's words is that Abraham could know that God was indeed testing him, and that his faith withstood the test.

How many of us who are Fathers today, measure up as Abraham did. Not many I bet :) Could be that it is because Angels don't ask us to do things like that.

Thanks and love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 02:48:32 PM by YellowStone »
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DWIGHT

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2007, 03:13:43 PM »

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." Heb. 11:17

At the time of this offering of Isaac, there was no law of Moses, there was only the promise of God to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations.  His wife Sarah was barren and old past her time of life.  His other son Ishmael, was the son of the bondwoman Hagar which was a type of the law.  The promise was through Sarah who was a type of Jerusalem which is above, which is the mother of us all and came by faith.  Without faith it is impossible to please Him. 

Abraham knew that the promise was made through Sarah, that's why when God told him to sacrifice his only begotten son, by faith Abraham believed God that God would provide a sacrifice.  This is law verses faith, called verses chosen, death verses life, darkness verses light, etc. etc.  It is an alegory showing us that the just shall live by faith.

Darren's right, God did not tempt Abraham but tested his faith as He tests our faith daily. Romans 4:22
"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."  Hope this helps Jay.

In Him,

Dwight
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Jay

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2007, 04:33:15 PM »

Thanks, Yellowstone and Dwight. I understand the part about Abraham and his only son being a type of God the Father sacrificing His only Son for the sins of the world. One thing that I thought of just a little while ago and Dwight touched on in. That being the faith that Abraham displayed which was accounted to him for righteousness. Maybe it was this God-given faith that constrained Abraham to go through with God's command BECAUSE Abraham knew that, since Isaac was the child of promise that God Himself would raise up Isaac from the dead in order to keep His promise. Then I found this scripture: Hebrews 11:17-19 - By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],   18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:   19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

But still in all, I'm thinking if it were me, I would have questioned whether or not it was really God commanding me to kill my son being that I know it is wrong to kill and certainly my spirit would recoil from such a command to kill my own beloved son and I think I would have rationalized that it can't be God telling me to commit such an atrocious act. So, its interesting how Abraham endured that ordeal.

Peace,

Jay
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Kat

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 06:42:15 PM »


Hi Jay,

What strikes me about Abraham, is that he was a very prominent figure in the OT and was often used in reference to God;

Gen 26:23 "I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not..."
Exo 4:5  "that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham..."
1Ki 18:36 "...O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel... "

Being that He was a person God used in such a way that the name Abraham would be used in reference to God throughout the scripture, this would seem to require that God would cause him to be outstanding in some way.  "And he was called the friend of God..." but not this alone, as well he was shown as having the faith and the actual willingness to obey in an exrtaordinary way. 

James 2:20  But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
v. 21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
v. 22  Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
v. 23  And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
v. 24  You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham was specially prepared to carry out what was required of him, so that he could be called "the God of Abraham" through out scripture, and used as a reference to being faithful and obedient.
So we could not follow in his footsteps unless we were specially prepared to do so like he was, I think that is why we can not imagine doing what he did.
That's the way I am seeing this.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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TimothyVI

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 08:08:49 PM »

Hi Jay,

I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.

Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.

If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.

I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.

By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?

Tim
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Jay

  • Guest
Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 09:49:38 PM »

Thanks for that bit of insight Kat. Surely Abraham was prepared for his mission by God and therefore anyone else would be hard-pressed to go through with such a command.

Tim, you asked a good question. How did Isaac feel about being tied to an altar knowing that his demise would be forthcoming by the hands of his own dad? Well, my guess is that Isaac must have been prepared for his role in this drama as well as Abraham was for his role, for what "normal" son would permit his dad or anyone else for that matter to tie him to an altar and slay him like a sacrificial lamb? Isaac therefore would be a type of the Son of God who submitted to His Father's plan to offer Him up as a sacrifice for sin.

I guess that since all is of God and He works His purpose through the human instrumentality, then He provides the necessary wherewithal from within to withstand the horrors that come from or is God-engineered from without. While my "gut" or my spirit assures me that its all true -- how that God engineers circumstances, created evil, etc., its still mind-boggling to me and to be quite honest, kinda scares me as well -- makes me wonder what kind of scourging He has in store for me -- "for my own good". I'm having a hard time getting past that one.

Peace,

Jay
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Sorin

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2007, 01:36:32 AM »

Hi Jay,

I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.

Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.


If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.

I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.

By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?

Tim


Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.

Deu 20:16  But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:




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Jackie Lee

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2007, 01:57:34 AM »

Hi Jay,

I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.

Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.


If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.

I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.

By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?

Tim


Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.

Deu 20:16  But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

I think I need a break for a while.
 ???






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GODSown1

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2007, 03:31:49 AM »

Hi, Yep!!!,
             I agree with Dwight, GOD had already told Abraham that he will have a son to Sarah & he will be the Father of many nations, it was his great Faith in GOD in what He had told him, so this is why I believe he had no hesitatin because he just new Issac would be spared, Well dis b my Opinion lol!,
         muchLOVE!! Pera
           
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Robin

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2007, 06:32:10 AM »

I've been trying to get some words out on this and just can't seem to do it, but here are some scriptures.
God sets his chosen apart. Physically then and spiritually now. Everything that is not of God must die.  Maybe someone can put this in better words than I can right now. To me it is another parable. No idols. No false teaching. No carnal mind. It all must be destroyed.

Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God


Deuteronomy 7
2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.


1 Kings 11:2
Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 06:33:34 AM by M.G. »
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TimothyVI

  • Guest
Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2007, 08:55:49 AM »

Hi Jay,

I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.

Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.


If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.

I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.

By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?

Tim


Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.

Deu 20:16  But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

I understand that Sorin.
All of those stories in the old testament which show God to be a vengeful, murdering, genocidal God, are
the very scriptures that I struggle with.
If God never changes, then what happened between the time of the old testament
and the new testament? How did the God that told his people to kill every man, woman and child,
to rip babies out of their mothers wombs, become the God that told us to love our enemy?

I must admit, I don't understand. That is why I would like someone with a deeper spiritual
understanding than I, Ray perhaps, help me to understand.
Perhaps the entire bible is a parable.

Tim
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 11:14:31 AM »

This is an interesting thread with many good observations from Darren, Dwight, Kat, M.G. and all who posted. I am just going to add a few observations.

Abraham knew that Isaac was a miracle child born to a barren woman, a gift from God. Abraham saw first hand how God created Isaac's life, owned Isaac's life and that God could take it away and restore it once again. Abraham showed faith in the most extreme fashion, as a parent it is easier to imagine and accept our own death than it is our child's death. Abraham was willing to make the ultimate (parental) sacrifice because he had faith that God could and would restore it at the resurrection.

Let me ask a question from a different perspective, would we, do we want our children to die to the flesh and become spiritual creatures? When we share the Truths of His Word (take the Sword to them so to speak) and set an example of godliness are we not slaying our children to the world? Are we not doing this in the hope that they will lose their carnality and have it replaced by His Spirit?

As far as the destruction in the OT goes we must remember the spiritual message contained within these "atrocities" bringing to mind that Israel represents spiritual Israel, the elect who will be a part of the Lake of Fire burning out all the carnal nature of the unconverted souls.

We have gone round and round with this before, when we look at the OT scriptures that speak of destruction and look at them with the mind of man we are tempted to ask ourselves;


Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Unless we look at these OT examples with spiritual rather than natural eyes we lose the true meaning;

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Destroy or destruction seems to have been translated from many original Hebrew words, I will post some of them below;


H4229
מחה
mâchâh
maw-khaw'
A primitive root; properly to stroke or rub; by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).


 H7843
שׁחת
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

H5595
ספה
sâphâh
saw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to scrape (literally to shave; but usually figuratively) together (that is, to accumulate or increase) or away (that is, to scatter, remove or ruin; intransitively to perish): - add, augment, consume, destroy, heap, join, perish, put.

H3772
כּרת
kârath
kaw-rath'
A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (that is, make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces): - be chewed, be con- [feder-] ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ([covenant]), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.


H4889
משׁחית
mashchîyth
mash-kheeth'
From H7843; destructive, that is, (as noun) destruction, literally (specifically a snare) or figuratively (corruption): - corruption, (to) destroy (-ing), destruction, trap, X utterly.


H3423
ירשׁ    ירשׁ
yârash  yârêsh
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (be driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

There is more there and this word deserves study keeping in mind how through the LOF process spiritual Israel will (with Christ) totally and completely eliminate all carnal thoughts, actions and deeds from every creature. Also, that God has the power and authority to give life, form the circumstances in our lives and to take life as He wills and pleases, all according to His plan of creating immortal, incorruptable Sons and Daughters.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe





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LittleBear

  • Guest
Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 11:29:55 AM »

I'm not sure, but maybe I can put some of my rambling thoughts here.

Aren't the things that happened in the old testament a type of things in the spiritual? So if Abraham was a type of the Father, and Isaac was a type of God's Son, then Abraham's sacrifice would have been a one time deal never to be repeated again, just like Jesus was the one sacrifice for all mankind.
I don't think that God would tell us to physically kill anyone. 

Also, as M.G. says,
I've been trying to get some words out on this and just can't seem to do it, but here are some scriptures.
God sets his chosen apart. Physically then and spiritually now. Everything that is not of God must die.  Maybe someone can put this in better words than I can right now. To me it is another parable. No idols. No false teaching. No carnal mind. It all must be destroyed.

Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God


Deuteronomy 7
2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.


1 Kings 11:2
Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.





All these things that God commanded to kill in the physical, we are to kill in our lives so that nothing comes before us and God. It is now in the spirit.
This is how I understand it so that I can make some sense of it all. But I have to admit, it is hard to understand.

Ursula
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2007, 12:29:46 PM »


For some it seems that to die to this life is a troubling thing.  I too do not like the thought of death or anyone I love to leave in death.  But this life is to have an experience of good and evil and then to die. We all will die.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

God is sovereign and He controls the way all will die, so if in the OT He told the Israelite to "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:" Ok that's the way they were to die. 
But Israel was used as a very important type of the 'Israel of God' to come, they were the physical shadow of the spiritual Israel.  There is obviously a very important analogy used here to show how God will work in Spiritual Israel.  So the way God caused them to die was to teach the elect.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

That God told Israel to put all to death, so in that case you know it makes God responsible.  Is God any less responsible for the death of every person that dies in every war that has ever happened, or for that matter every person that dies that ever lived.  He is sovereign and He alone decides when someone shall die.

Ecc 3:1  "To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: v. 2  a time to be born, and a time to die;"

I do not think you will call God a murderer to His face, when you stand before Him to give account. 
This life that we cling to, is only a shadow of real life, the sooner it is over the better, we just can't except that. 

John 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 04:13:31 PM »

Well then, how can it [now] be wrong to kill anybody from a biblical point of view? I mean sure it's illegal, and you will most likely not escape man's justice, but I don't understand how Christians can be against abortion when they used to rip babies out of their mother's wombs in the OT. They can't even use their religion to say that abortion is wrong, since clearly, it isn't in the bible.

Rape isn't wrong, cutting off people's hands and feet and hanging them over the pool is not wrong [David] , neighter is killing a man so you can sleep with his wife. And David was a man after God's own heart. Yeah, an evil God. I still don't understand why Kain was punished for killing Abel, didn't he just do what God later commanded the Zionists to do?

So would I call God a murderer to his face? Seeing that he creates life, and he takes life.... I don't know, but how about, evil?
Also, the Ten Commandments thou shalt not kill was written in vain, or perhaps, it meant thou shalt not kill.... another Jew only, but who cares about the filthy Gentiles...

And you wonder why people don't like the Jews, or their God. Mel Gibson isn't such a bad guy... really, he isn't...............

Also shall mortal men be more just than God? In this case, I would have to say yes. I would never do any of those vile things.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 04:19:48 PM by Sorin »
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Robin

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2007, 05:21:05 PM »

I've learned to recognize in my life that every attack from the evil one is an attack on the character of God for the purpose of destroying my faith.

Who are we to question God's character? Would it not be just if he wiped us all off the face of the earth. We are all guilty of sin and all have sinned. The wages of sin is death and we've all earned the death penalty. Who can stand before God and question his character?

He spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all.

What great mercy he has shown to all of us.



 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2007, 05:23:07 PM »

Well then, how can it [now] be wrong to kill anybody from a biblical point of view?

Pro 26:16  The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.

Pro 28:26  He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.

 I mean sure it's illegal, and you will most likely not escape man's justice, but I don't understand how Christians can be against abortion when they used to rip babies out of their mother's wombs in the OT. They can't even use their religion to say that abortion is wrong, since clearly, it isn't in the bible.

Pro 12:15  The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Ecc 10:12  The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.


Rape isn't wrong, cutting off people's hands and feet and hanging them over the pool is not wrong [David] , neighter is killing a man so you can sleep with his wife. And David was a man after God's own heart. Yeah, an evil God. I still don't understand why Kain was punished for killing Abel, didn't he just do what God later commanded the Zionists to do?

Psa 14:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psa 94:11  The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

Ecc 5:2  Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

So would I call God a murderer to his face? Seeing that he creates life, and he takes life.... I don't know, but how about, evil?

Psa 41:5  Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
 
Also, the Ten Commandments thou shalt not kill was written in vain, or perhaps, it meant thou shalt not kill.... another Jew only, but who cares about the filthy Gentiles...

Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of  the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
 
Isa 11:10  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

And you wonder why people don't like the Jews, or their God. Mel Gibson isn't such a bad guy... really, he isn't...............

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
 
Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
 
Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodlylusts.
 
Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


Also shall mortal men be more just than God? In this case, I would have to say yes. I would never do any of those vile things.

Deu 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Job 33:12  Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
 
Job 33:13  Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
 
Job 33:14  For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.


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TimothyVI

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Re: Abraham's Sacrifice of Issac - Why?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 05:41:32 PM »


For some it seems that to die to this life is a troubling thing.  I too do not like the thought of death or anyone I love to leave in death.  But this life is to have an experience of good and evil and then to die. We all will die.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

God is sovereign and He controls the way all will die, so if in the OT He told the Israelite to "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:" Ok that's the way they were to die. 
But Israel was used as a very important type of the 'Israel of God' to come, they were the physical shadow of the spiritual Israel.  There is obviously a very important analogy used here to show how God will work in Spiritual Israel.  So the way God caused them to die was to teach the elect.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

That God told Israel to put all to death, so in that case you know it makes God responsible.  Is God any less responsible for the death of every person that dies in every war that has ever happened, or for that matter every person that dies that ever lived.  He is sovereign and He alone decides when someone shall die.

Ecc 3:1  "To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: v. 2  a time to be born, and a time to die;"

I do not think you will call God a murderer to His face, when you stand before Him to give account. 
This life that we cling to, is only a shadow of real life, the sooner it is over the better, we just can't except that. 

John 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Hi Kat,

Thank you for that thoughtful reply. You have the right attitude concerning things to which we have no answers.
The things that God commanded His people to do in the old testament were immoral by my standards.
Genocide is immoral by any rational person's standards. I could not
justify doing anything like that even if I thought that God ordered it. Because I could not be certain that He did.
My biggest problem is that I do not like thinking that my God could be like that. That is why I keep looking
for a better understanding of the torah.

I have reconciled within myself, that in the eyes of God, what he commanded was not a bad thing because He alone knew
that all of these people being killed were merely moving from one life to another. A better life in fact.

But you have to admit, it had to create a lot of confusion with the Hebrews, for God to command his people, "thou shall not kill"
or murder, and then tell them to kill every man, woman and child.
It has also created a lot of confusion ever since. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed
since the time of Christ, supposedly in His name, because they believe that God has shown that He approves of killing
in His name. Mostly because of what happened in the bible. The bible that is supposed to teach morals.

I wish that I had your unconditional acceptance of God's methods Kat.
I pray that God has mercy on me that I don't.

Blessings on you,

Tim
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